Building High-Performance Marketing Teams

Drew: Hello, Renegade Marketers! If this is your first time, welcome. And if you’re a regular listener, welcome back. You’re about to hear a recording from CMO Huddles Studio, our live show featuring the accomplished marketing leaders of CMO Huddles, a community that’s always sharing, caring, and daring each other to greatness. This episode centered on how CMOs are nurturing and developing talent, and what better guests than three CMOs who know that there is no successful CMO without a great team behind them. It was a pleasure to chat with Michelle BB, who was CMO of Skillsoft at the time of this recording and is now CMO at IDG; Katie McAdams, of Basis Technology; and Marni Carmichael of ImageSource Inc. Yes, you need to make coaching and feedback a priority as a CMO, you need to carve out dedicated time to connect with your team, you need to develop both technical skills and power skills, like communication and collaboration. From mapping first-time manager journeys to building a team template for navigating difficult conversations, this episode is chock-full of insights. If you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. You’ll be supporting our quest to be the number one B2B Marketing podcast. Alright, let’s dive in.

Narrator: Welcome to Renegade Marketers Unite, possibly the best weekly podcast for CMOs and everyone else looking for innovative ways to transform their brand, drive demand, and just plain cut through. Proving that B2B does not mean boring to business. Here’s your host and Chief Marketing Renegade, Drew Neisser.

Drew: I’m your host Drew Neisser, live from my home studio in New York City. Marketing moves fast, but exceptional mentors grow talent faster. When CMOs invest in growing their people, they grow their impact. In fact, I can’t think of a single successful CMO who doesn’t have a great team underneath them. And with the right coaching strategies in place, they ensure their teams not only keep pace with industry changes but also drive innovation and set new standards. By championing continuous improvement, CMOs lay the groundwork for dynamic and forward-thinking teams. So today we’ve got three amazing CMOs sharing insights on how they foster and coach their teams to unlock their potential.

Drew: So with that, let’s bring on Michelle Boockoff-Bajdek, otherwise known as Michelle BB, CMO and Chief Sustainability Officer of Skillsoft, and a returning guest who previously appeared on the show to discuss employer branding and how to get more women in the C-suite. So with that, hello, Michelle. How are you and where are you?

Michelle: Hey, Drew, I am also coming to you from my home office in southern New Hampshire, just a stone’s throw from the border of Massachusetts. So great to be back.

Drew: Yeah, it’s amazing. And, you know, the talent thing is a huge thing. It’s very, you know, it’s a hot topic right now, a lot of dissatisfaction out there, but you lead a learning platform. And so I’m curious how you foster a culture of learning within your team that sort of translates, I guess, into tangible marketing results.

Michelle: Yeah. And look, this is entirely apropos. Yesterday was International Day of Learning. January is National Mentoring Month. So like, you hit the nail on the head with today’s topic. I do want to take a little bit of a step back and look at the macro landscape we’re all navigating, right? It’s been a whirlwind of tectonic shifts. We were just talking off-stage about hybrid work. These past few years have been difficult. And even right now, we are once again sitting at the crossroads of a tech revolution and a cultural shift. Because in a world where generative AI exists, we have to transform how we work and the skills we need to do that work. And at the same time, there’s this expectation on the part of our employees for work to be meaningful, aligned with personal values and wider societal goals like sustainability, inclusivity. And these aren’t just trends, they are the new reality of the talent ecosystem, and they are shaping not just how we hire, but how we develop and retain our teams.

So getting back to your question, we foster this culture by emphasizing curiosity, a skills-first mentality, and continuous growth, all with a focus on outcomes. And we’ve got five key principles, just so you know, curiosity, it is one of our core values as a company. We hire for it, creating a team that naturally is inclined to ask questions and invest in experimentation, and recognize the importance of failing because it signals progress. 

Second principle is that we make it a priority across the business. It’s one of our four strategic pillars, and one of our company-wide OKRs is to be our first and best customer. So we use everything that we offer to our customers, whether they’re skills benchmarks, individualized learning paths, CAISY, which is an AI coach, it’s pretty cool, a safe space where you can practice and receive real-time personalized feedback without the judgment. And we offer incentives, right? So opportunity for advancement, internal mobility, stretch assignments, innovation projects. 

The third thing, though, that I think is important, and a principle that we apply is that you’ve got to focus your learning, not just on the skills needed to do the job, the sort of hard, durable job skills. But you know, if you look at the World Economic Forum, the things that we really need in our organizations right now are the human skills, the power skills, critical thinking, active learning, complex problem-solving, creativity, and I think they’ve never been more important. 

The fourth principle is that you got to be able to see yourself, everyone needs to see the role they play in the objectives that we set as a company. When people know and understand what the business expects of them, they can better align their teams and their work to be outcomes. 

And then the last principle is that you got to recognize them, right, you got to hold people accountable, but you got to recognize them for the learning they invest in. So we regularly acknowledge learning achievements, we call out milestones, badges, certifications, and we drive to outcomes, whether it is you know, the things that have been growth drivers for us like investments in pragmatic, or really, more tactically, the innovation and experimentation that we’ve done with Gen AI, that has resulted in significant results and very tactical, but in translation and content productivity. Learning is everything to us.

Drew: There was a lot to unpack there. In fact, I want to go back and listen to all of it, because it felt like there is the blueprint for others. A couple of things that I just heard that really resonated with me: one being your own best customers. It’s obviously, for you, so important, because if you don’t bring on people who are naturally curious—it’s funny, I was looking at a LinkedIn profile of a CMO. And it’s the first time I saw this, it said, sort of lifelong learner—you’re my people. I mean, that’s the essence of CMO Huddles, if you think you’ve stopped learning, you’re done. I think it’s an interesting thing when you’re hiring for curiosity, though, because you probably have to get really good at sort of, because people know that. And so how one demonstrates their curiosity, I think is an interesting thing. I’d love to know how you find those people. But we’re talking about the topic is nurturing employees. And obviously learning is a key part of that. And you mentioned a lot of these things about upskilling and rewarding, maybe we could focus on one of them. Obviously, you’ve institutionalized this, this is part of who you are, let’s go deeper on how you help your employees sort of identify the things they need to learn to develop.

Michelle: There are a couple of ways that we do that. We’re talking about the power skills, the things that are going to make you a better team member, a better collaborator, a better leader, a better manager. There are a lot of people that we put through something called first-time manager journey. I don’t know about you, and I’ve said this before, Drew, I think on a show that we did. I was not a good first-time manager because nobody taught me how to be a manager. And we have to teach people what comes with that responsibility and how to work. So it is critically important that we think not just about the skills that you need to do the job. In some cases, that’s the easier part. It’s the other stuff that’s somewhat intangible that we have to remind ourselves. There are a lot of people who are entering this workforce right now who do not have basic business acumen or skill. They don’t know the unwritten rules of the organization because they’re not watching it. They’re on a Zoom or they’re in Teams. They’re not looking at the behavior of everyone around them. And so we’ve got to really focus on power skills. So we do that. And we call that out as an important part of your career trajectory. Because if you have an interest in managing people, if you want to be a leader in that organization, then we have to give you the training to be able to do that. And I think that’s critically important. When it comes to the other skills, every single individual gets an individualized career path that calls out where there are gaps. So we have benchmarks that help us do that. And yes, we utilize our own solutions, our own platform. But we also bring in external experts, who are going to be probably far more steeped in some of the areas that we want to teach people. I mean, look, we’ve talked and you’ve had on Nicole Leffer, we’ve brought her in, she’s just been fabulous in our organization. And then I talked about the investment in programmatic, which has been really critical to make sure that every single individual is thinking customer first as we shift or think about product lifecycle management.

Drew: Yeah, and again, you covered a lot there. I think one of the things I feel bad about for this next generation coming up, who’ve never worked in the office, who never got to see the subtleties of a boss managing a meeting, managing up or never got a chance to see these things that are only learned through observation. They’re hard to get out of a book, they’re hard to get from a class. I think the notion of teaching the basic skills, it’s a lot, but I think it’s a recognition, you have to because they’re not going to get it by osmosis. You can’t get it on Zoom. Just to reinforce that point, I was talking to a partner at a law firm, and I asked how their third years were doing relative to past third years pre-pandemic, and they said they’re two years behind, which is crazy to think about, but those are the learning opportunities. So one, my net net is, boy, there’s a good time to be Skillsoft, because you guys teach a lot of things that aren’t being necessarily learned through osmosis at the company. And two, just love the fact that you guys are drinking your own champagne.

Drew: Alright. Well, with that, we’ll come back to lots of other topics that we touched on. We’re gonna welcome Katie McAdams, the CMO of Basis Technology, who previously joined us on the show to shed light on the intricacies of perfecting B2B marketing networks.

Katie: Thanks for having me back.

Drew: Where are you and how are you?

Katie: I’m great. Just juggling my two and four-year-olds, and all the fun that comes with that. And similar to you, I’m in my home office today in Chicago. So excited to be back and good to see you.

Drew: Nice to see you and look forward to hopefully seeing you in Chicago, maybe in April. So that’ll be awesome. You’ve heard what Michelle had to say. And I’m curious what your approach has been to sort of identifying and nurturing. Let’s start with leadership. With Michelle, we talked a lot about basics, but what are you doing to sort of help nurture your direct reports?

Katie: So I think Michelle hit the nail on the head about a lot of things. And, you know, at Basis, we are incredibly passionate about personal growth and what we call self-improvement. So looking at our core principles, self-improvement is probably one of the biggest tenets to how we approach taking care of our employees and setting expectations around what we expect from them. So we can provide them with the tools and the resources to get better, but the onus on taking advantage of those tools and resources falls on them. So there is an ongoing expectation that if you work at Basis, you are committed to self-improvement. And we’re committed to giving you the tools and resources to make that happen for yourself. I think humblebrag here, one of the reasons this week, we were actually just named by Ad Age as the number one best place to work in the industry, is because of the resources that we have available to employees in this area. So training, ongoing education, both as it pertains to the technical side of your role. But also, I think, more importantly, the soft side of your role is just paramount to you.

Drew: Well, and by the way, congratulations on that. That’s a lovely honor. And you know, to me, this is such an important thing to just pause on for a moment because marketing plays a role in employee satisfaction, and when you include employee satisfaction in their purview of marketing. Now, this is me preaching from up high, you’ve expanded the role of marketing and the power of marketing. So I think that’s really, really cool. So the issue with self-improvement, and I want to go back at that is, you know, a lot of entry-level folks don’t know what they don’t know. I remember, you know, we had Kim Scott on from Radical Candor, in her book, she told the story of when Sheryl Sandberg said to her, if you want to succeed at this company, you’re going to need to get rid of your non-words in your speaking. Well, if she hadn’t said that, you know, Kim may have never addressed that. But it didn’t occur to her that she needed to, until that moment. So I’m just wondering, in this context of self-improvement and committed to do it, how do you help your employees see what they need to do to get to the next level, or at least achieve their goals?

Katie: So that is such a great question. And I love that book. By the way, that concept of radical candor is something that we practice regularly. I think, you know, in order for that to happen, you need to create a feedback-rich environment. And something you mentioned, which is that you’ve got a lot of folks who are entering the workplace, and they’re not used to getting critical feedback. That is really both giving and receiving feedback. It’s a muscle that you need to develop. And it’s something that is incredibly uncomfortable at first. So I think focusing on how can we have people see feedback really as a gift and a vehicle for growth, versus as something to kind of get defensive about is really paramount to helping people grow and build their self-awareness. So I think for me, what I’ve found is that the highest performing people that I’ve worked with are the people who crave the feedback. They don’t shy away from it, they’re not afraid. So how do we help people get to that point where they see it that way, they see it as a positive, and they’re not afraid to both give it and receive it? You know, one thing I’ve done with my team to help in this area, so I actually have a template that I’ve worked off of where it’s like, here’s a quick format that you can follow if you’re about to have a typical conversation with a peer or, you know, one of the employees who reports up to you. And I think that once you start using just kind of a formatted conversation guide in your mind, it just starts to become second nature. And it starts to become something that comes more naturally to you. We have to develop that muscle. You know, one thing our CEO says a lot is that the teams that are the highest performing teams are not only teams who give feedback to one another but teams where they’re willing to give and receive that feedback to one another in real-time in front of each other. So that’s something personally that I strive for. And if we can get to that place, I feel like we are operating kind of at our highest potential as a team.

Drew: So let’s talk about this a little bit more. It’s funny because we have Matt Abrahams, who wrote the book “Think Faster, Talk Smarter.” He’s joining us for a Career Huddle. One of the things that I remember distinctly in his book was, because the book is about spontaneous conversations is that feedback is being given less, because people are uncomfortable doing it on Zoom, whereas it’s really easy if you just left a meeting together. And it’s easy to say “Great job with this. I think about that. And can we talk about this?” Whereas on Zoom, it’s like rush to the next meeting. And it’s very hard on Slack to get the tone right. So I’m wondering, one, how do you make sure that you are doing it in real-time when it’s a Slack world or a Zoom world? And two, how do you help the employees sort of formulate the right questions to ask, and how you can formulate those questions?

Katie: Sure. So it’s a great question. And there’s definitely not a silver bullet to this, as we’re all figuring out how to navigate this kind of hybrid workplace situation. You know, I think this is where the art of just “Hey, are you available for a quick phone call? Are you available for a quick five-minute conversation? Just had a thought, had a quick piece of feedback that I wanted to share with you coming out of that meeting.” I think the art of that, which happened, to your point Drew, naturally, when we were in the office, you could just quickly stop by someone’s desk. But even that, at that point, honestly, it was intimidating, right? Grabbing someone in the office and saying, “Hey, I wanted to share this with you coming out of that last meeting.” It’s intimidating. And I think whether you’re face-to-face or virtual, so I think it’s just a matter of getting folks comfortable with it. There doesn’t need to be a lot of big build-up to this. And in fact, the less build-up the better, right? Like if we’re just kind of addressing and tackling things as they’re happening, then it doesn’t need to get to that point of escalation where there is this big buildup and all this fear to have a conversation. I think for me, that’s the approach that I try to take and the mindset I try to instill is just to knock this stuff out as it’s happening, versus letting it become something bigger and withholding things from one another and gossiping behind each other’s backs. Like just get it out there and address it with the person.

Drew: And hopefully people that you’re giving this feedback to sort of say thank you for the feedback. In particular now, and I will say just a plug for Matt Abrahams. He does offer several formulas like “What? Now what? And so what?” as a way of framing a spontaneous conversation, so I encourage folks to read his book.

Katie: When you’re the giver of the feedback, we always say, are you coming from a place of curiosity or are you coming from a place of being right? So I think having that internal dialogue with yourself and ensuring that you’re approaching these conversations from a place of compassion and curiosity, versus feeling committed to being right, I think it’s going to result in a more productive conversation.

Drew: I’m so glad you did because it really is not about saying, “Hey, do it this way.” It’s about building awareness of how they did it and then saying, “So how do you think we could address this or do this better? Or what kind of information could I give you to support you in this change?” As opposed to saying “You screwed up. Pay attention, would ya?” So it’s a lot less the feedback that goes down well, it’s just a more Socratic Method and you’re right, from a place of curiosity.

Okay. We’ll be back with Katie. Right now, we’re gonna move on to Marni Carmichael, VP of Marketing at Image Source, and an industry expert who has graced our stage before to delve into the topics of strategic B2B sales enablement. Hello, Marni. 

Marni: Hi, Drew! How are you?

Drew: I’m great. How are you and where are you?

Marni: I’m doing well, thank you. I’m the solo rep of in-office working it looks like today. So I’m at our corporate headquarters in Olympia, Washington. And we have a recording room for our own webinars and content. So that’s where I’m at. I’m very branded, I feel like.

Drew: Yes, well, and you sound great. So that’s obviously, so far, so good on that, right? So you’ve heard a little bit of what Michelle and Katie said, I’m wondering, what do you think about between the lines in terms of what they said versus what you were thinking?

Marni: I love so much of that. And I’m so grateful I have the opportunity to kind of bounce off of what they’ve already said. So I loved what was said about you know, feedback is a gift and a vehicle for growth. And high performers want feedback. And that’s something that’s a message that I’ll take directly to my direct reports when we’re having those difficult conversations. Like I know which ones are ambitious and really career-driven. And so that’s a muscle that I get to help them develop and will help them in their career growth. So I loved that part of it. I think one of the things for me, as a manager that I take a lot of like what personally motivates me in my career is helping others be successful, you know, helping others remove those obstacles, often that they put in front of themselves, you know, and help them navigate those paths that I’ve navigated, you know, and hopefully somebody can do it more gracefully than I have. So that’s such an objective of mine, as a manager, let me help you be successful. I talk very openly, with my direct reports that this may not be your last job. So what do you want your career to look like? How can I help you get there? What skills do you need to develop for you know, that dream job or your next advancement here at Image Source? Image Source is very generous with training and support, you know, internal and external tools or resources. The field’s wide open, you know, somebody on my team told me they were interested in getting PMI certified, and I made sure that was one of their objectives in the year and we got that training done and paid for, for her. And that’s added a structure and a skill set to the team for managing projects through a tight methodology that benefits everybody. Although that’s not a traditional marketing skill set. It’s like, yeah, if you want that on your resume, and it’s going to benefit the team, I’m going to help you get there.

A couple of big lessons I learned early in my career, I was managing a team of you know, younger business development professionals, they were going to a lot of trade shows, they were doing all that kind of stuff. And one of the individuals wasn’t dressed professionally in the office, like the day they came to headquarters. They weren’t dressed professionally. And I had seen that person at an event and thought the same thing. And I didn’t say anything. And so the day they came to the office, my boss saw them, and my boss said something to them about it. And they didn’t take that feedback well, and we ended up losing that asset. And they were really an asset to the organization. And I just remember so clearly, my part in that was I didn’t address it when I saw it. I had a different relationship with that employee and I could have talked about it very gracefully and openly and gotten what we needed. And instead, we lost somebody. So now when I see it, I have an obligation to say it and I have an obligation to the person that reports to me and to the organization to make sure that I’m just as direct as quickly as possible. And I always just fall back on “Would you rather hear it from me or from my boss?” And I think that they’d rather hear it from me.

Drew: There’s a lot to digest there. So PMI, I’m assuming is project management?

Marni: Yeah.

Drew: So that was one. I love that if you see something, say something, the New York subway folks have been pushing for a while. So that makes sense. And the fact that you guys are generous with your training, certainly speaks to this. I was thinking, and I immediately thought, of course of a situation when we used to run Renegade where we had an employee who just didn’t dress properly. And I remember distinctly, the HR person that just drove them crazy. Absolutely drove them crazy. We didn’t have much of a dress code so this was a really tricky thing. High performers want the feedback and somehow instinctually appreciate it, just like a great athlete knows they need a coach. Right?

Marni: Yeah, that’s what Katie said before I joined, and I was just like, “Ah, that’s a lesson for me, too.” Sometimes I don’t like all this soft direction. But it’s body language, it’s facial expression. I always think about the improv direction, “Yes and” so when somebody is giving me feedback, or an idea that might feel like it’s in conflict with my own. Yes. And could we talk about this? And what do you think about that? So just when I frame those conversations in a way that is more open and accepting, my defenses come down, and the part that I want to get across is taken in that same spirit.

Drew: Yeah, I’m wondering, the high performers want it, they’re going to seek it, they’re going to use it, they’re gonna go, “Oh, I could just run a little bit faster if I did this.” That’s great. I’m wondering, the place the gap is the people who are underachieving. Right? The people who are not naturally inclined to take the feedback. And those are the folks that I think present the most interesting challenge. And they’re not necessarily looking for the feedback, don’t even know that feedback is probably one of the key ways of knowing that they care, right? Your boss doesn’t give you feedback, they just don’t care. How do you give feedback to someone who doesn’t know they need it or want it, or that it would be helpful to them?

Marni: Well, it’s so interesting, this is so timely, I’m in this situation with a direct report right now. And I think about a couple of things. I think about the great Simon Sinek, I just saw him covering, you know, some people are not ambitious and some people do not want to grow in their role, they want to do the job that was described to them, they want to come in at eight and leave at five, they want to be a good contributor, but they don’t really desire that kind of growth and ambition, there’s something at home that drives them, they have another passion that isn’t connected to their wage, and that’s okay, so you have to manage them appropriately within the organization. You can have people like that, you just have to make sure you’re staffing well and have a robust team so others can move in and others, you know, it may not be the best fit over time, we may need something more ambitious in that role. But for now, it might be okay. And I try to keep that in mind. I’m lucky enough. Also, whenever I have an open headcount, our CEO always says hire two. You might keep one, you might get somebody out, you might get a great asset for another team, just hire two. The other thing I would say that the art of giving the feedback and being open, and professional, and direct is a practice for me. So even if the other person doesn’t want the feedback, I’m obligated to give it and it makes my muscle stronger. Like every single time I do it, I get a little bit more graceful at it or a little bit more direct or a little bit more in line with our corporate objectives and our corporate vision. And I get to model that back for them. You may not want the feedback, but I’m going to give it in a professional and direct way, you’re going to have a voice in the conversation, and I’m going to give you a path for success, whether they take it or not. That’s just another piece of information for me in how I’m managing my team and how we’re aligning to our goals.

Drew: Yeah. As you’re talking, I’m thinking, and I love that is that this is part of you and your management style. This is things you need to continue to work on. Liz Wiseman, who wrote the book “Impact Players,” she describes what an impact player is. And based on what you talked about, there are people who are good at their job, and that’s all they want to do. And they’re not ambitious, and they’d be happy to stay where they are. That’s one, that’s recognizing that and as long as everybody’s on the same page, that can be fine. There’s another group which we’ve already talked about the high performers who get it who are doing and killing it. And then there are the underperformers who could be high performers if they simply understood what it took to make an impact. And I tell you that book was a revelation for me. It’s like I want everybody that I know in business, my kids and so forth who want to because this is something that I remember first starting out in the advertising business, it’s like, I kind of knew, but I really didn’t know what it takes to be an impact player.

Drew: So with that, we are now going to talk about CMO Huddles, and we’ll be back for the group conversation in a second. So, launched in 2020, CMO Huddles is a close-knit community of over 300 highly effective B2B marketing leaders who share, care, and dare each other to greatness. Given the extraordinary time constraints on CMOs these days, everything about CMO Huddles is designed to help leaders save time and empower them to make faster, better decisions. With that, Katie, Michelle, Marni, you are all incredibly busy leaders. I’m just curious if you could share a specific example of maybe how CMO Huddles has helped you perhaps save some time, anything nice you want to say, we’ll take it.

Katie: I’ve been in my role for five years. And stepping into the role, I think I was introduced to you pretty early on. And I think having a community of like-minded other CMOs at other companies who have similar challenges, it just kind of has helped me fast-track some of my problem-solving, understanding that other people are facing the exact same challenges at different companies and in different industries. So I think having that resource and that community of other like-minded individuals who can really help you kind of leapfrog your whatever problem it is that you’re facing by telling you how they tackled it because they’ve been there and done it, has been incredibly valuable to me and helping me grow in my role.

Drew: Awesome. Thank you for that. Michelle, Marni, any thoughts?

Marni: I’ve gotten some really tactical help too. Have you tried this tool? What, you know, what are the ins and outs of it? What were the downsides? Or what did you add to your tech stack to solve this problem or to measure something? So that’s been incredibly helpful, too, that could be in the chat, in a regular Huddle, it can be on Slack, but there’s a lot of very practical advice available too.

Drew: And I’m imagining that saves you some time.

Marni: Yep, absolutely.

Drew: Awesome. Okay, Michelle, anything?

Michelle: Yeah, I think this gets back to the topic at hand, which is around learning. And I think we’ve had a lot of great individuals who are experts who have come and joined CMO Huddles to share and impart their wisdom. And it’s been incredibly invaluable. I gotta be honest, but one of my favorite things about the Huddles is the recaps. I go through them if I can’t make a Huddle. And if there’s something of interest, you know, I reach out to you.

Drew: I love it. And I appreciate that. And I appreciate all of you. So thank you. If you’re a B2B CMO who needs a shortcut, both in terms of time-saving to B2B greatness, take a second to sign up for a free starter program at CMOhuddles.com. And hope to see you in a Huddle soon.

Drew: Okay. So moving on. Let’s talk about for you individually. What do you see as the most challenging aspect of coaching talent right now? And maybe there’s a good point to talk about sort of the remoteness of all of this, but what’s a challenging aspect for you, and anybody feel free to jump in.

Michelle: I think a lot of times what I see, particularly with newer managers or leaders, is carving out the time. You absolutely have to make it a priority and part of your job, and we actually measure that. Otherwise, it’s going to be that thing that’s on the backburner, or it’s last on your to-do list when in fact, I think it’s a critical investment. Again, when we look at our leaders, our expectation is that a good percentage of their time is spent managing, leading, and coaching their teams, and we measure that. 

Drew: So how do you measure it, Michelle? 

Michelle: The NPS, and we ask specifically about how you feel about your manager. We make it completely transparent throughout the organization; everybody can see my eNPS, my boss’s NPS, or anybody that works for me. I think that transparency helps. It’s not about criticism, per se. It is about understanding where we have opportunities for improvement. I loved what you talked about feedback before because I think everybody looks at feedback as criticism. It’s not necessarily that; it is an opportunity, it is a gift. We have to encourage feedback that is both positive—here are the things that you’re doing really well because otherwise, you don’t know—as well as here are the opportunities for improvement. We have to model that behavior ourselves. I need to be open to feedback, and anyone on my team is welcome, and oh, by the way, they know that I’ll be receptive to it and they give it to me.

Drew: For anybody listening who doesn’t know, eNPS is employee net promoter score, scale of zero to 10. How likely are you to recommend your boss to a coworker? So that’s an interesting use case. That’s very cool. Secondly, I want to throw out there, this is so funny. When I was coaching five to ten-year-olds on the soccer field, and I went to coach training, they talked about the compliment sandwich for a six-year-old. What I learned recently is compliment sandwiches actually don’t work in the professional workplace, which is interesting. I just want to call your attention to this because it turns out that they just hear the positive stuff and forget the negative stuff and say, “I’m great, thank you.” Again, I think it’s not about negative or positive. That’s why the compliment sandwich is problematic; it’s about feedback. It’s not criticism. The point of that moment is to say, this meeting, this happened, here’s some feedback. Anyway, that’s an interesting observation. Okay. Anybody else want to weigh in on the challenging aspect of it, Katie?

Katie: Sure. By the way, you’re so right about the compliment sandwich. The compliment sandwich is really for the giver of the feedback so that they don’t feel like they’re being a jerk. It’s not effective, I don’t think. In terms of what’s challenging, it’s a very timely question. I’m in the process right now of finalizing my teams T&E budget for the year. I think with this hybrid or remote work situation that we’re all in, creating these in-person experiences, I think we as leaders might take for granted how important it is for the more junior-level employees, especially those who are just entering the workforce, who are working from home. So I think that, to me, is probably my biggest challenge in terms of going into this year and figuring out how do I create those in-person opportunities, leveraging the budget that I have, and make sure that it’s meaningful time spent together and figuring out what can we do in person that just doesn’t translate as well virtually? So I think, for me this year, figuring out how do I create those in-person experiences. How do I budget appropriately for them? How do I weigh the value of those versus putting my budget elsewhere? Those are kind of all the questions that I’m in the process of figuring out in this new wave of work.

Drew: It’s so interesting because the temptation is to bring everybody in for strategic planning and work, work, work, work, work. Maybe the opportunity of bringing people in is about culture building and bonding and sharing and celebration, or maybe feedback and sort of other things. So interesting, as we reframe, how do we use the in-person? Michelle, you started to talk about this, but let’s talk about the skill sets that you need now versus skill sets that you might need tomorrow, and how, obviously, generative AI has changed a lot. So what are the skill sets that you are looking for that you think your teams need to learn right now that they might not have known two years ago?

Marni: I think for me, one of the core skill sets that I need to see right away is collaboration. So I need to see people asking questions. I need to see people not being afraid to say what they don’t know, and what they need to know. In terms of AI, I need to see people using their time as effectively as possible. If there’s an AI tool out there that will shorten our path or get a great first draft on a piece of content or manage some of our workflows that are still like, next, next, finish, I’m all for it. But I need them to be collaborative on what those solutions might be. I need them to be very forward-thinking about how their roles will benefit from these tools. I don’t have any thoughts of risk, or, you know, I think we’ve all probably used enough generative AI by now to see that it will make things better, easier, faster. And that should be elevating the human-in-the-loop tasks by 10x. We should just be doing more smarter stuff. My whole challenge in my role is how can I get out of tasks and be more strategic. And then I want that for the people just below me too. How can we free you from these tasks and elevate your thinking to strategy and long-term execution? So I’m all for it. But I need people to be collaborative and curious about what those tools are going to do for them and be proactive in those suggestions.

Drew: So, Michelle, my absolute theory is collaboration has been crushed by remote that it’s so hard. We run a 100% remote team. The good news is we’ve all worked together for a long time, and so forth. Collaboration is probably another skill that needs to be learned. How do you collaborate and how do you encourage learning how to collaborate in a remote world?

Michelle: You know, it is a challenge, and I’m not sure that anybody has solved that. If they do, please let me know. I will tell you that it is one of those things that we have to work on every single day. Sometimes I think we default to email or Teams chats or this sort of async communication that doesn’t allow us to actually have a conversation. To me, that is the most important thing. So along with collaboration is communication. I’ve taken lately to picking up the phone and using those methods and calling people via Teams, because when you get people together in an environment, whether it is virtual or whether it is in person in office, and I’m not talking about a meeting, I’m talking about time to just collaborate, I think we have turned this notion of collaboration into a meeting culture, and I’m sure that is an entirely separate conversation we could have. But getting people together in a meaningful way to solve a problem, to work together, and to make sure that when we leave, we’re clear about what needs to happen, who the driver of the initiative is, and what those next steps are and how we’re going to ensure success.

Drew: Got it. Yeah, it’s funny, you mentioned something called a phone. There’s a whole generation who just doesn’t use the phone that way, like to talk on a phone.

Michelle: We are not going to be successful if we just live in a texting culture, because we’re never going to be able to convey empathy, emotion. It will limit us. And so these are some of the things that it is helpful for those who are newer to their career to understand that a phone isn’t a bad thing and talking to people in person isn’t a bad thing. It’s actually a really powerful skill.

Drew: Yeah. The other part of it is that an email does not spawn, “Yes and,” which came up earlier, right, it just doesn’t. Email says yes or no, and a lot of buts, and you know, collaboration and innovation comes from that and in adding value. It’s funny in the recap that you’ll get tomorrow, Michelle, we talked about from small to big, and that process of getting there and again, even though small ideas don’t come without the “Yes and.” So learning and development is this asset that you have for your current organization. But I wonder if it plays a role in your recruiting strategy? And, Michelle, I know it does, because you’re a learning company. So I’m going to skip you for a second. But I’m wondering Marni or Katie, do you ever talk about learning and development? We’ll go to Marni because you mentioned that you have this program. Is it part of the recruiting process? Do you get people because of that?

Marni: I don’t know if we get people because of that. I think in where we’re recruiting from, it’s an expectation that you have some higher education reimbursement, that you have some of these programs. I do think it is really a culture. It’s something that our CEO models; he’s built a lot of our trainings for internal. He actively kind of hungers for that outside knowledge. So I think it’s something our organization really models. We’re in a community where there’s a lot of individuals that have advanced degrees, we’re in a college town, we get a lot of that, but I think it is an expectation of applicants. And then it is something that we get to give direct examples of how we’ve helped individuals or what that really means in practice, but I think it is a necessity in recruiting.

Drew: So it’s fluoride in toothpaste, it’s just a requirement of it. Interesting. Okay. And Michelle, you’ve covered KPIs. Katie, how are you, if at all, incorporating KPIs into your coaching methods?

Katie: I think one thing that we’re focused on is building a culture of accountability. And this is a piece of self-improvement and self-development where the KPIs come into play. So we’ve instituted, I think, a pretty robust review system and review process in the company that happens twice a year. So once a year, we have a more in-depth review that happens where everything is documented, conversations are had. Mid-year, we do more of what we call a light review. So a lighter Employee Development Review, where we have an opportunity to circle back on some of those things that we had covered in that bigger review. And it’s a way for us really just to continue that conversation and ensure that those things that we identified as areas to work on don’t get lost because it’s very easy to have these conversations but then never actually circle back and share the feedback of, “Hey, I’ve seen you improve a lot in this area,” or “Actually, this is still an area that I think we have some challenges and opportunities for us to improve how we’re working.” So I think having those KPIs built into more of what I would call a formal review cycle or formal review process is really critical if you want to scale as an organization that really focuses on the development of the employee at the core of the culture.

Drew: Got it. Well, I think this is the moment where I would usually ask what would Ben Franklin say. Now you might wonder what relevance Ben Franklin has at this moment, but I will remind you that he was a very successful businessman, so much so that he retired at the ripe age of 43. Having set up franchises of printing shops and managed a lot of people, so what he would say about helping and building an organization of learners, and nurturing your employees is, “Keep care of the shop, and the shop will keep care of you.” There you go. And in fact, it did, because he had all these franchises that continued to send him money after he quote, retired.

Drew: Before we get to final words of wisdom, I just want to sort of make sure that there wasn’t something that you all had prepared to talk about other than the final word, something that on this topic, I should have asked already. Michelle, I know you had a lot of input on this topic.

Michelle: I think that in good times, in difficult times, you keep people motivated and engaged by culture, right? And culture is what carries us through all kinds of times and look, businesses, you know, they go up and down, they have great times, they have not-so-great times, but when you have a culture where people feel like they are valued and of value, when you are offering them opportunities for internal mobility, when you are thinking about their careers and helping them plot it out, and when they can see that the investments pay off when they can see people moving internally when they see their own opportunities to grow in the organization. I think it’s really important and it is hard to do, to keep this type of learning and leadership culture going but when you do it, you see, I mean, tremendous value out of it in terms of things like percentage of regrettable attrition. And as I said before eNPS employee satisfaction. So I think that building this culture is absolutely critical.

Drew: Yeah, it makes so much sense. The one thing about all of this is, we know as a fact that you guys have no time at all, because you have so many demands on your time. I’m going to throw this out to Katie, how do you make sure you have time to do all of these things that we talked about, and drive marketing and work with sales and partner with sales and partner with product development and work with HR and internal communications? I mean, it’s just too much. So how do you make sure that training and development still get some of your time?

Katie: I think it comes back to honestly the first thing you said on this call, Drew, which is that you’ve never seen a successful CMO who didn’t have a great team. And if we’re not focusing on our teams as our number one priority, then what are we focusing on? I try not to miss one-on-ones, even if I don’t have something specific to cover, I find that we always can find something to cover. Like I said, I’m prioritizing time in person with my team. So I think it has to be our number one focus, right? Like, for me, if we’re not working well as a team together, then the quality of the work is gonna suffer. So how we work is to me more important than the work we produce because I think if we’re working together well as a team, then the good work will just come out of that. So it’s got to be the number one priority. It’s part of our job, we got to make the time for it.

Drew: You got to do it. So it’s not a question of if, it’s just how.

Drew: Alright, well, with that, let’s move on to final words of wisdom for other CMOs when it comes to coaching and developing talent, and we’ll start with you, Marni.

Marni: I would say two things. As soon as you see it—for me, I see it, I clock it, I write it down the second time, then I say something and I’m as direct and as kind as possible. And then I would add to that, you know, expect goodwill from all of your staff, expect them to take the feedback well, expect them to grow, expect them to change. And if they don’t, that’s okay, that’s just information for you and how you manage your team forward. I’ve learned to give people a few days to see what that goodwill looks like, you know, sometimes it smarts a little bit, and then I see them kind of pull up and get moving in the right direction. So those two things have been, you know, great guidance for me: say it quickly, say it kindly, and then expect them to manage to work to that direction.

Drew: And what’s so interesting about what you’re saying, I’m thinking by doing this with your direct reports, you also teach them how to do it with theirs, so they can just keep paying it forward. Okay, Katie, final words of wisdom.

Katie: Sure. So I think as marketers we are maniacal about the customer and the prospect journey, and we need to be as maniacal about the employee journey. So a little kind of spin on your Ben Franklin comment: it sounds cheesy, but I really do believe that if you take care of the individual and the company, they will then take care of the company and take care of the customer. So building that employee-centric culture, I think is going to be paramount to the companies that really want to succeed and be leaders in the space.

Drew: I love it. Okay, Michelle, bring us home.

Michelle: I think you alluded to it before: learning can’t be a check-the-box exercise, it is an investment, but it is one that will pay dividends. It’s certainly a driver of greater effectiveness. But ultimately, as both Katie and Marni have said, when you create this kind of culture, you create the places that people want to come to work. And they’re going to have a sense of ownership and commitment to the organization because they can see the value that they’re delivering back.

Drew: Yeah, I think all of this is so true. If you want to find time as a CMO, the answer to that question is that you’re delegating everything that you can. And the only way you can delegate everything is if you just have extraordinary people underneath you. And they may not be there day one. So it’s up to you to get them there so that you can get sort of out of the marketing and into the you’re leading it, not doing it. So there it is. Michelle, Marni, and Katie, thank you all, you’re great sports and such great input. Thank you, audience for staying with us

To hear more conversations like this one and submit your questions while we’re live, join us on the next CMO Huddles Studio. We stream to my LinkedIn profile—that’s Drew Neisser—every other week!

Show Credits

Renegade Marketers Unite is written and directed by Drew Neisser. Hey, that’s me. This show is produced by Melissa Caffrey, Laura Parkyn, and Ishar Cuevas. The music is by the amazing Burns Twins and the intro VoiceOver is Linda Cornelius. To find the transcripts of all episodes, suggest future guests and learn more about CMO Huddles or my CMO coaching service, please visit renegademarketing.com. I’m your host Drew Neisser. Until next time, keep those renegade marketing caps on and strong!