Listen with All Your Heart: Leadership Lessons from my Dad

Drew Neisser: Hey, it’s Drew. And I’m guessing that as a podcast listener, you will also enjoy audiobooks. Well in that case, did you know the audio version of Renegade Marketing: 12 Steps to Building Unbeatable B2B Brands, was recently ranked the number one new B2B audio book by Book Authority. Kind of cool, right? Anyway, you can find my book on Audible or your favorite audio book platform.

And speaking of audio before we get into today’s show, I do want to do a shout out to the professionals that Share Your Genius. We started working with them several months ago to make this show even better, and have been blown away by their strategic and executional prowess. If you’re thinking about starting a podcast or want to turbocharge your current show, be sure to talk to Rachel Downey at shareyourgenius.com and tell her Drew sent you.

Okay, let’s get on with today’s episode.

Narrator: Welcome to Renegade Marketers Unite, possibly the best weekly podcast for CMOs and everyone else looking for innovative ways to transform their brand, drive demand, and just plain cut through. Proving that B2B does not mean boring to business. Here’s your host and Chief Marketing Renegade Drew Neisser.

Drew Neisser: Hi, everyone, it’s Drew. In this episode, we’re going to re-air one of my favorite Renegade Marketers Unite episodes of all time. For Episode 100, I sat down with my dad and my hero, Carl Neisser. He was 90 years old at the time, and we talked about all the lessons he’d collected over the years, like how to master the long lost art of listening, how to build strong and meaningful relationships, and how to be endlessly curious.

My dad was the best man at my wedding for the simple reason that he was the best man in my life. He was always inspiring to me. And our interview is evidence of the amazing things he had to share with the world.

We lost my dad this year on March 8, 2023, at 96 and 2/3 years of age. It’s been tough. And my brothers and I know full well how lucky we were to have such a wonderful person in our lives for so long. His was a life well lived. And I miss him something awful.

So here’s to my dad and his memory. And of the many things to learn in this episode. A key one is find a loved one, and listen to them with all your heart.

So I’ve been thinking about what to do for episode 100 for quite a while now. In fact, probably one could argue for 99 episodes. And it happens that my father is in town and I thought, well, he’s 92, plus eight, we’re at 100

Carl Neisser: Who’s counting for heaven’s sakes? come on!

Drew Neisser: So I wanted to introduce you to my dad who also happens to be one of my heroes. And you’ve heard me talk about Ben Franklin…

Carl Neisser: Geez, Andrew, if I can be in the Ben Franklin category. Come on!

Drew Neisser: Just so you know, my father was the best man at my wedding. And one of the humans that I admire most on the planet. And had a very interesting career, not in marketing, although he does come from a marketer. Didn’t your father work in the advertising business?

Carl Neisser: He certainly did. He formed his own advertising company with a partner right in the Depression.

Drew Neisser: Right, 1929. We looked up yesterday.

We did. We did a lot of significant research, Andrew.

We did. What we learned was that Neisser & Meyerhof, a Milwaukee agency was formed in 1929. And then they won the Wrigley business in…

Carl Neisser: I think it was like 32 or 33…

Drew Neisser: 33, at least according to my friends at at AdAge.

Anyway, funny enough, as we were researching this on my dad’s father. There’s a legend in the family that sometime in the late 1930s, early 1940s, his doctor said to him, “Walter, this business is going to kill you. You better get out of it.”

Carl Neisser: Gotta get out or it’s just too much. The partner was too tough.

Drew Neisser: So we also learned in our reading that they had the Wringley business. They were in the Wrigley Building like an in-house agency.

Carl Neisser: Oh, yeah. And come check us Andrew. Come on!

Drew Neisser: And they had a lot of good things going over there at Neisser & Meyerhof. But the thing that I read or saw is that they lost one part of the Wrigley business, the Doublemint business, in 1940. And I could just see your father, just grimacing and thinking, “I gotta get out of this!” Yeah, maybe that was what it is. Anyway, he split ways and left in 1941.

Carl Neisser: And went to a client, which is very common.

Drew Neisser: Yeah, well, and sure enough. So my grandfather had the good sense to go client side.

Carl Neisser: That’s what it was

Drew Neisser: And work for Wyler’s. And so my dad, not a marketer. But one of the things you did was you worked for Beckman for 24 years in a number of expanding leadership positions. And we were talking earlier, just about some of the best people that you worked for, and talking about leadership and some of the people that you admired as leaders. Maybe you want to share one of those.

Carl Neisser: Well, one guy early on, probably in ’53 or ’54, Bob Chase, head of manufacturing, I’m running production control. Which is nothing today.

Drew Neisser: I would think there’d be people who would be responsible for controlling production.

Come on, no! And Andrew, the key thing there was for me to keep 3 weeks of every part on the shelf. So now we’re on just in time, which is totally the opposite. Anyway, this guy said to me, Karim, “When you told me that shipment is going on Tuesday, if it’s not gone, I want to hear on Sunday or Monday, none of this stuff on Tuesday, because I’m making the commitment to the client.”

You know, it’s funny, as you’re saying that now it reminds me any of you who run your own company or run a small business, or even some of our clients, use the book traction and entrepreneurs operating system. And one of the key parts of that is what’s called the accountability chart. And what you’re describing is a boss who held you accountable. And I think that, for the most part, any of us in our careers, always sort of appreciated bosses who did that. It’s so much easier.

Carl Neisser: And then when I am managing people, if they’re coming back to me with mushy, mushy answers, you’re really annoyed. In fact you go after them till you get, “Come on, when? What time? When is it gonna happen?”

Drew Neisser: So if you’re a Chief Marketing Officer, certainly holding your employees accountable for certain goals. One of the things that’s so challenging in that position is what are the goals of the marketing department and the organization and making sure that they get the right things done. Were there any circumstances along in your career where you felt like you had a boss who didn’t have his eyes on the right prize?

Carl Neisser: Yeah, no, I certainly had some of those certainly, and not as good as Bob Chase. Not as good.

Drew Neisser: Yeah, really, who not only held you accountable, but did so in a way that you felt was good for the organization.

Okay. We were talking about leadership on a much broader level. And that got us to Lincoln. And we both are big fans of Team of Rivals. And what that conversation reminded us of, and maybe you can speak to what you admired about about Lincoln and his cabinet?

Carl Neisser: Well, the team arrivals is such a good book, because 3 or 4 of those guys, were also running against him before. Key competitors and really sort of walk into the job thinking he’s a rail splitter, and maybe a pretty good joke teller, but not much else. And as they work with him, and they see his patience and his ability and his sense of humor. By the 3rd or 4th inning, at least, they recognize this guy is just one hell of a leader. And I think that’s a total turnaround.

On your team. And team claims to be the key thing these days. Do you really have a team where 1 + 1 + 1 = 10. Or sometimes, and I went through that, where 1 + 1 + -2. People are not working together, so everybody for the same pay in the same situation, it’s attitude.

Drew Neisser: Oh, yeah. And what the lesson—it’s funny, I mean, and you’ll find this in any book, whether it’s “Good or Great”, “Getting the Right People on the Bus”, or “The Entrepreneurs Operating System.” Making sure that you have the right people in the right slots. But I think for a Chief Marketing Officer, in particular, thinking about they are only as good as their 2 direct reports or their 4 direct reports is really so important. And so it’s not only just getting the job, you know, if you want to succeed, obviously, you’re no stronger than the best or weakest people that you have working for you.

Carl Neisser: And so what do you think as someone who managed a lot of people, what kinds of things did you do to try to build a team?

Continual contact with each one of them, listening, that is almost a lost art, listening carefully and trying to solve and helps them and beyond their team.

Drew Neisser: So it’s funny, I can add some editorial because he is my father. And I have to say that I’ve always admired the way you question and ask people. But you do listen more. I know lots of people listen, but very few people remember all the things that you remember from listening. And that’s a tribute to…

Carl Neisser: And you usually say, when you’re in an interview, if you are, I am doing 90% of the talking, you’re going to lose. But if you can get the other person gone, and you’ve done some homework, and you show the interest in their particular situation, that really helps you along.

Drew Neisser: So if you spend any time with my dad, which I strongly encourage all of you to figure out how to do it.

Carl Neisser: Well, I have limited time and my charges are heavy.

Drew Neisser: You will find that he will start a conversation with just about any buddy and always knows the girls at the check casher, or the dry cleaner, or whatever. And he often knows more about them than they know about you.

Carl Neisser: I didn’t make the test difficult. And you’d like to accomplish that.

Drew Neisser: So. But you have many friends as a result. So anyway, this was an interesting little exercise into looking at leadership. A very different conversation than we’ve had at Renegade Thinkers Unite. So I said, “What do you want to talk about next?”

They said, “Well, let’s talk about sports.”

And I say, “In what context?” And it was in the context of team. So one of your first big accomplishments was on a team. Didn’t you win a doubles championship in the state of Illinois at one point in your life?

Carl Neisser: Good memory. That was a long time ago and now was with. And I always say that has to do with your partner. And I had a really good partner, Charlie Shap, who was 2 years younger, and twice as good as I was.

Drew Neisser: So you chose well.

Carl Neisser: I chose well, and at 75, I took up handball. And I always said, it made good sense to have a younger partner, and he was 73.

Drew Neisser: So when we talk about sports, it’s a metaphor that’s used a lot in business and so forth. From your experience. I remember I learned tennis from my father. And he always talked about how you could learn a lot by how someone behaved about them based on how they behaved on the tennis court. But talk to me about how you see teamwork in sports as something that helps train and prepare someone for business.

Carl Neisser: Yeah, well, certainly, the first thing is really being a very good member of that team and reaching out to the other team members who respond to you and getting this sort of synergism working on your team that, “I’m for you, you’re for me, and rewarding a good play. And if the guy makes an error, forget that. Let’s go on to the next bit.” You don’t want to dwell on that error at all.

Drew Neisser: Yeah, I think that’s one of the things that a singles tennis player really has to deal with is moving on. And the ability to just sort of keep going in a match and in business.

Carl Neisser: And then marketing. Come on. How many ‘no’s you get before you get that ‘yes?’ So you just got to adjust to those.

Drew Neisser: It’s true. But I like what you were saying about building the notion of teamwork. But you’ve always been someone who, “I’m gonna invest in you first.” And that attitude, I think, is one that clients and companies are trying very hard to do with their customers. Is they’re saying, “I want to think about my customer. I want to be customer centric.” But I also think in many ways, they still just want to sell stuff. And those two things often come into conflict.

Carl Neisser: They can. Or a good leader can pretty well keep that conflict from happening or minimize it, right?

Drew Neisser: Because we can focus on the prize and how we define what success looks like.

Now, in sports, in some sense, it’s easier because you have a winner and a loser. But I don’t know if that’s a problematic metaphor for business because there are lots of winners.

Carl Neisser: Oh, yeah.

Drew Neisser: It’s not a zero sum game.

Carl Neisser: No. And so many people do not realize, when they look at a big company making profits, that there were 10, that just didn’t make it in that business, to let this one come through and be really successful. It is a tough a situation. And a lot of them just fall by the wayside.

Drew Neisser: Through a lack of vision, a lack of leadership, a lot of common goals. And so the kind of thing that you find on a winning team.

Carl Neisser: That’s correct. Absolutely. My LA Dodgers.

Drew Neisser: Your LA Dodgers. How are your Dodgers doing this year?

Carl Neisser: Just marginally.

Drew Neisser: Well, the Yankees aren’t doing that much better. But by the time this episode airs, we’ll be in October. So hopefully,

Carl Neisser: Well, especially if we go to church and do the right thing on Sunday. Come on.

Drew Neisser: Speak for yourself there.

Okay, I’m going to switch gears here for a second. Let’s talk about what my dad did for the last—I’m gonna have to say—20 plus years. I have described you as the man with a golden Rolodex. You lived in Newport Beach in Orange County since 1957. That’s a long time. And you know a tremendous amount of people and have done a lot. But you found a way to stay connected. Let’s talk about networking and how you approach that in building a network and maintaining these relationships.

Carl Neisser: Well, as I was saying to you earlier this morning, I’ll really try to keep up with lunches and breakfasts. And then you said, “How many do you kick out?” Or, “How many do you go after? And how many people really call me?” Well, it’s easily 85% I institute. But it’s one call, and most of them are expecting that. We’ve had that for years. “Shirker. Oh, where are we going? We got two favorite restaurants.” And it works out very nicely.

Drew Neisser: And as you’re talking to these folks, because you’re inquisitive, ask, in one way, how can I help you? And so many of these folks, you’ve connected with other people and brought them together.

Carl Neisser: Well, you just sort of as you’re listening, you’re taking in a lot of information about your guest or your network person, and you’re thinking or something comes up and you think, “Wait a minute, Joe could really help this guy.” And then I call Joe and get them together. And that’s a lot of satisfaction, hopefully helpful for both parties.

Drew Neisser: And because you’ve maintained this network, you can call Joe and say, “Hey, Joe, I’ve got this one for you to consider.” They’re not gonna say, “Gosh, Carl, you’ve been this is the tenth call.”

Carl Neisser: Just the opposite, because you’ve built a reputation and they trust. To me, Andrew, the five letter word ‘trust’ is still the key thing in business.

Drew Neisser: It is. And it’s funny, you should say that because we’ve been working on a video recently for one of our clients in that area. And it’s such an interesting word. And it is such an intangible, except for this. I either trust you or I don’t. And earning trust is not something that you can do by saying something.

Carl Neisser: No, no, you put your finger on it, you earn that. And as such, when you’re starting with a new client, and it feels wrong, usually, it can only go further south. So you don’t take them on. And I’m finding more and more people,, especially in marketing, react that way.

Drew Neisser: Right. So you pick people to do business with that will be good customer. Funny, I was reading a really interesting blog post. And it was an article on trust. And the person was talking about how a startup needs to pick their first 100 Customers really carefully because if they don’t absolutely love everything about that company…

Carl Neisser: You’re in the toilet.

Drew Neisser: You’re kind of in trouble. And I thought, “Wow, that’s a really profound notion.” And the notion is just staying focused. If you want to earn trust, you want to earn trust of the right people, you can’t possibly today earn trust of everyone in the marketplace, right?

Carl Neisser: No way, no way. And I’m thinking, Andrew, in my last 15 to 20 years where I had my own business would take on a couple of very special clients, who trusted me, and were really working with me because of my reputation that I had earned for many years in Orange County, California.

So when I would introduce them to people that I know who might be their client. And because I had known these people for a long time, they’d come in, we’d go together, and some of those things really fit. And that made sense. And it was based on reputation and trust.

Drew Neisser: And if you introduce someone to the wrong person, or the person that you introduce them to ended up being somebody that wasn’t trustworthy.

Carl Neisser: The whole things out. That’s done. You’re through.

Drew Neisser: And that’s problematic. I wrote a line the other day is like, you know, it takes a lifetime of consistent activity to earn trust and a New York minute to lose it.

Carl Neisser: True. Oh, yeah.

Drew Neisser: But I think that overdramatize it. It’s funny. So I had a call from my daughter, who was having a big problem with American Airline she couldn’t get back from the island. And she said, “American Airline’s the worst.” And I’m thinking about all the collective experiences that I’ve had with American Airlines over the last 30-40 years. And you know what, they put some credit in the goodwill bank. So I will give them some slack. She’s only had that one experience. And if she could help, but she wouldn’t…

Carl Neisser: Well, 10 or 15 years from now, when you have her on this podcast, she’ll be much further down the road.

Drew Neisser: Well, we’ll see. I’d love to have her on the podcast. My daughter works for Facebook.

Carl Neisser: Oh, that’s tops!

Drew Neisser: I would love to have her on the show. I don’t know if they’ll let her. But if we can do that then we can have all family episode.

Carl Neisser: Absolutely.

Drew Neisser: All right, we’re gonna take a quick break. And when we come back, we’re going to talk about more Neisser stuff.

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Alright, we’re back. I’m here with Carl Neisser, my father. And we’ve talked about networking and building relationships and earning Trust, which certainly is a fundamental part of any business.

Carl Neisser: And there’s a weeding process in that. You’ve met some people that you don’t trust or you’re just a little fuzzy with, and they do not go in the network that you really count on.

Drew Neisser: That’s interesting, because you think about a lifetime of a network and and the value of that lifetime. It’s funny, I get an any number of requests for connections on LinkedIn. And I apologize if you’re one of those listening, and I haven’t responded yet. But I really do try when someone says, “Hey, Drew!” And they have a very specific question about something or a connection that I have. I really do try to help them assuming that I can. Now, I don’t get 1000 of those, which is good. But I have never once felt like, “Oh, I can’t waste my time doing this.” Because it’s never a waste of time because the boomerang effect.

Carl Neisser: Yeah, and I’m thinking this call to make my dates that usually the gatekeeper, the gal who puts the person through to who I want, I know personally, we’ve talked before “Oh Carl. Sure, I’ll get him on the line right away.” And that’s just helpful to really work those people right into your system.

Drew Neisser: And, it’s funny, you’re using the term phone and phone calls. And I do have some millennial listeners. And if we want to reach up your grandkids, the best way to do it is with texting, maybe email, but phone calls are an anathema. Just to pick up the phone and call them is not something that they would think about.

And I wrote up an article recently on high tech, high touch. And this was something that Alvin Toffler talked about in 1970, with Future Shock is, as technology sort of took over our lives, we’d have more of a need for human connections, and not to get all heavy here. But ironically, a phone and the contact that you have with somebody over a phone call is so much more meaningful than texture of the email. And I worry that the art of the phone call, just like the art of the letter, are things that—I don’t worry, but I might lament, those things are just going by the wayside.

Carl Neisser: And they may be. When you think of how Communications has changed in the last 20 years, totally. So what, if you didn’t have a fax machine, come on!

Drew Neisser: I know, it’s funny. Now we don’t have a fax machine. So it just goes through this whole cycle. So as we think about some big lessons of your life, and really, for a moment, think about them in terms of people that you admire…

Carl Neisser: I’ll pick one real quickly. Into each life submarine must fall, what really makes the person in my mind is having had and gone through successfully and come out of some very serious problems of their own. To me, somebody who says, “Andrew, I’ve never had a failure, everything has been all the way up.” Does not make sense. They havn’t been exposed a lot. So you have to overcome those tough times and come back out of it.

Drew Neisser: Well, it also if you happen to have a number of tough times, you really do appreciate the times when it’s not tough.

Carl Neisser: Oh, absolutely. And from a marketing standpoint, this is really saying you’ve had quite a few ‘no’s’ some of them have been really tough. But you come right back and go on to the next person.

Drew Neisser: So we’re really talking about weebles. That weebles wobble, but they don’t fall down ,here. That’s a reference to a toy for those of you who don’t remember weebles.

Anyway, I think that that’s, that’s a really important comment. I don’t think anybody goes in and looks for adversity. I don’t think anybody necessarily does it. Although I think that if you’re a senior marketer, and you’re thinking about your next step, certainly taking on a challenge that you may not think you’re prepared for, is not necessarily a dumb idea. We’re not saying go out and fail

Carl Neisser: No.

Drew Neisser: On purpose. But, certainly, the setbacks. And the, application of that today that you’re describing is, fail fast, learn from your failures. I mean, one of the things that we talk about here a lot at Renegade, look, if you’re not taking a risk, you’re probably A.) not learning B.) you’re not going to be succeeding. Because there is no playing it safe.

Carl Neisser: And, Andrew, in marketing is when you would say to me, “You’ve got some stuff in the pipeline.” If you got three good ones, I think you’ll get one through. But if that pipeline is 1 only, odds are poor, or just extending that.

Drew Neisser: Particularly if we bring that focus, both in terms of what it is that you do and who it is that you’re talking to. I think I heard recently that the definition of marketing is presenting yourself in such a way that the customer just sort of buys you. Your service sort of sells itself. That was I think Drucker.

Carl Neisser: Yeah, no, I think that’s really very—and that goes back to trust. Because you’ve gone through the rough times, you’ve had those, you’ve pursued those, and you’re beyond those. So you say to Joe, “If you say that’s it, I’m goning with you.”

Drew Neisser: So as you’re talking I’m informed by this, one of the things that I admire about my dad is that every year he usually has a list of things that he wants to do that year and always it includes some new technology thing. And he’ll call me on New Year’s Day, that this year, it’s so and so.

Carl Neisser: And this year, it’s this dial phone.

Drew Neisser: Right. So, I have friends who are a little bit older than I who just can’t be bothered to learn an app or can’t be bothered to…

Carl Neisser: Or in my generation, too many just say, “I can’t do the computer.” And I said, “Oh, my God, you did the stick shift. This is no more difficult.”

Drew Neisser: But, you know, here’s the thing, you never stop learning. You never stop being curious. And so you would never be one to say, to advise someone how to have a life.

Carl Neisser: Well, you hit a key point. Every single day is a learning day. And unfortunately, even at my age, the more you learn, the more you realize you don’t know. And that is a sad situation.

Drew Neisser: It’s really painful. It really is. Yeah, it’s true. It’s sort of like if you read every book in the library, the next day, you open up the door, and there’s just a whole nother set of books to read.

Carl Neisser: Yeah. And you thought you were finished.

Drew Neisser: I thought I had this one down.

Just to have an homage. So last year, I think you said, “All right, I want to get texting.” The year before it was Facebook, the year before it was the ESPN app, and so forth. But you can imagine if you did this every year, and you kept adding something new and kept reading and staying curious, it seems like it enriches your life. You’re in a book club, too, right?

Carl Neisser: Oh, we’ve had a wonderful men’s book club for 16 years where we meet 11 times a year, Andrew dark in December. And we have a wonderful format where we meet at the hosts house promptly at 6, have a 1 hour cocktail party to improve our intellectuality and then dinner and discussion. And the guy who called me, “Would you like to be in a book club, Carl?” And I said, “Jesus, Martin Absolutely.” Because I think too many times, I can go 3 or 4 months, certainly in Orange County, and only had cocktail conversation, which is worthless. And to really get into a book and get the other guy’s opinion.

And interesting talking to your wife, Linda, the same thing with her book club. What it really does is by the other people’s choices, it broadens what you read, you wouldn’t have picked that book yourself.

Drew Neisser: It gets you out of your comfort zone.

Carl Neisser: Totally, totally.

Drew Neisser: So is there a book that you read in the last year or two that got you out of your comfort zone? They got you thinking about things that are a little different way?

Carl Neisser: Certainly, as long as you don’t ask me for titles or authors

Drew Neisser: I know. Yeah, I finished the red Sparrow series, of course, I can’t, remember the other two titles. One of them was the Kremlin something or other? And don’t ask me for the author’s name, but I highly recommend those books.

Carl Neisser: Yes, yes. I’ve read one.

Drew Neisser: Yeah. Well, the other two are waiting for you. All right. So book club, keep being curious. And I think for the listeners on the show, of course, I mean, I applaud your curiosity, you are folks that are constantly looking for insights to do your job better. Or to feel that you’re in the right place. And since we’re talking about books, I’m gonna throw a couple at you that just happened to be in the September newsletter—or August newsletter. But I read a lot this summer and the business books that I read, one was Clayton Christian’s “The Competing Against Luck.” And basically, it’s his innovation theory and the jobs to be done theory. I thought it was really, really interesting. And there’s some great stories in there, both in terms of companies that use jobs to be done as a theory as well as sort of looking back at companies that didn’t call it that but it fit into his theory.

Carl Neisser: Now you mentioned luck. How much of an influence is that? And going towards success in your mind?

Drew Neisser: You know, I’m a fan of Greg Norman statement, “The harder I work, the luckier I get.” I think that you…

Carl Neisser: But there’s no doubt, there’s some uncontrollables up there.

Drew Neisser: They’re no doubt.

Carl Neisser: For all of us.

Drew Neisser: It’s amazing how many successful leaders move from one organization to another, and they’re still successful. At that point, it’s no longer luck, right? It’s skill.

Carl Neisser: That’s real management.

Drew Neisser: Yeah. In their leaders, they build a team, they do certain things. And what Christiansen talks about is how to take a look out of it.

Carl Neisser: Really? Does he go to church a lot?,

Drew Neisser: No, I can’t speak for his religiosity. So that was that was one book that I read that I recently enjoyed, and then a number of others on storytelling, but you’ll have to go to the show notes for those books. So Well, Dad, I think the audience has gotten enough of the Neisser boys.

Carl Neisser: We’ve bored them silly. So let’s go from here.

Drew Neisser: Yeah. So I’m so grateful for you all, as always, for sticking with us.

Carl Neisser: And listen, Andrew, thank you for putting me on. It’s just been fun. We’ve had a good time. Hopefully, we’ve espoused something of value.

Drew Neisser: Well, we’ll certainly find out in the comments left on the show. So until next time, we’ll be here next week. Thank you for listening to episode number 100.

Show Credits

Renegade Marketers Unite is written and directed by Drew Neisser. Hey, that’s me! This show is produced by Melissa Caffrey, Laura Parkyn, and our B2B podcast partners Share Your Genius. The music is by the amazing Burns Twins and the intro Voice Over is Linda Cornelius. To find the transcripts of all episodes, suggest future guests, or learn more about B2B branding, CMO Huddles, or my CMO coaching service, check out renegade.com. I’m your host, Drew Neisser. And until next time, keep those Renegade thinking caps on and strong!