January 30, 2020

How CMOs Can Turn Obstacles Into Opportunity

“It’s not if—it’s how.”

That’s how Karen Jones, CMO of Ryder, a supply chain management and logistics company, started wrapping up our interview. It’s also what she tells her team often, and an integral part of how they approach business hurdles. The key to their success, though, isn’t just relishing the opportunity to overcome a challenge—they also rely heavily on a deliberate, test-heavy approach where they have room to explore, experiment, and find bold solutions that work. Another crucial element is the CEO relationship—for Karen to succeed, she noted the need for support from the CEO and board to have leeway in her marketing endeavors.

In this episode, we’ll hear more about how she’s formed her marketing mindset through her career, and how learning from failures has helped shaped her current approach. Listen in for a candid conversation about the pitfalls of marketing in a silo, marketing’s limitations within a business, and how effective marketing can accelerate a product’s demise.

Full Transcription: Drew Neisser in Conversation with Karen Jones

Drew Neisser: Hello, Renegade Thinkers. If you’re a CMO, this is literally the best of times and the worst. The best part is that businesses need you more than ever to drive growth, drive innovation, inspire employees and engage customers, all the while building this mysterious thing called “brand.”

The worst part is the lingering myth that marketers can work miracles in any situation, and more specifically, the myth that they can increase sales even in the face of serious product and service issues. In this episode, we’re going to explore the boundaries of the CMO role, looking first at a problem that, frankly, no amount of marketing probably could have solved. And then we’re going to look at a more positive story about how the guest on the show actually helped drive innovation in an 85, 86, 87-year old company. What’s especially cool is that we’re going to have both conversations with the same guest and that’s Karen Jones, the CMO of Ryder System. Karen, welcome to Renegade Thinkers Unite.

Karen Jones: Thanks, Drew. Glad to be here.

Drew Neisser: So this is a show that’s been a long time in the making. We’ve tried to connect at CES, you lost your voice and we met our various technical challenges, but we are here now and ready to rock and roll.

Karen Jones: Great.

Drew Neisser: OK. I was looking at your LinkedIn profile yesterday and I couldn’t help but notice that you’re a big brand person. I mean, you did seventeen years at HP, six years at DHL, three and a half years at NRG Energy—which I had to look up, it’s a big company—and six and a half years at Ryder. Now, I’m just curious was that by choice or did it just happen?

Karen Jones: Oh, wow. Yeah. So, everything I’ve done, I’ve chosen, but at the end of the day, I don’t know that I would have planned to be in transportation and logistics. I don’t know, we all have our plans and sometimes they turn out very differently than what we had originally expected but I have had some wonderful opportunities to move from a couple of different industries, which I think is pretty awesome. For me, it rounds me out. I always say that marketing is marketing wherever you go. It’s the industry and the challenge of learning a different industry that makes it really fun.

Drew Neisser: Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. And for those that listen a lot, you kind of know I’ve got this ADD thing and so I love new challenges and the notion of doing one is why I could never be client-side. I just need more challenges. But I think it’s really cool, I think it also takes a special kind of CEO to recognize that you have a marketing tool kit and you have a methodology that you can apply and that process will work, frankly, almost with anything. But I do think that there are some peculiarities that are important to know. I’m wondering, for you, when you say you could do marketing everywhere, that’s a skill. Is there a little hidden superpower in there that you bring to these two-year engagements? Because you stay. You outlast the average stay of a CMO by a lot.

Karen Jones: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. I don’t know if it’s a secret staying power, but I do think that no matter what company you go to—especially these days—marketing is held to a pretty high standard for returning value to the company. I think if you don’t get in quickly and determine very quickly how you’re going to return value, you don’t last. When I say “return value,” it’s all about driving new eyeballs, new sales, and, clearly, new revenues, so I think that’s been the secret to my success in many instances. But having goals, getting those goals on your CEO scorecard, and then driving your marketing organization to be accountable to them has been the trajectory that I’ve been on.

Drew Neisser: And you know what’s interesting, you could say those things and yes, we need to drive the business, but marketing has so many dependencies. You can’t change the product necessarily, at least when you arrive. You can’t change customer service at least when you arrive. You can’t change culture. It’s interesting to me, I’m wondering if—and I don’t even know if my setup made sense—but have you seen the role evolve? Because, again, there are all these extrinsic factors that you can’t control and there seem to be more of them.

Karen Jones: Right. Well, again, going back to the secret of success, I think that, unfortunately, marketing is often relegated to this—and I hate to use these words—but this airy-fairy feel-good kind of stuff and there are a lot of the divisional presidents and some of my peers who initially weren’t too ready to embrace it. But again, going back to sitting side-by-side with those peers and understanding what their biggest challenges are in the business and then crafting marketing initiatives that help them drive what they’re trying to get to has been the staying power of my success in many of the jobs that I’ve done. Tough to do and I think marketing still—no matter what—brings insights because we tend to be much closer to the customer. Evolving those insights and bringing them back to the business is a really powerful tool. Then, being able to sit with those divisional presidents and really understand what their revenue goals are and how together we can create a winning solution is really important these days.

Drew Neisser: It sounds like initially, they’re cynical, “Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, marketing.” And then you sit down with them, you find out some insights, you help them grow their sales and make them look like heroes. Then you get to go, “Marketing is cool, isn’t it?”

Karen Jones: It is. But I think it’s more than insights today, Drew, I think it’s also that we have the power through data and analytics like we’ve never had before in our marketing organization, so it’s not only customer insights, but it’s actually real hardcore data. It gets us out of this airy-fairy kind of feel-good emotional stuff—not that that’s not incredibly important as we know as marketers—but I think when you’re dealing with guys who are about dollars and cents and financial reporting every day, having your powder dry on real statistical insights and data analytics to support those becomes a really powerful combination for marketers. And it wasn’t always that way.

Drew Neisser: Right. I mean, one, the data wasn’t available. And what’s interesting to me on that and then I want to move into the real topic at hand is that there’s also a chance that you could be buried in data. I interviewed the CEO from Pegasystems (episode), who’s a brilliant guy, and his comment and advice to CMOs was, be careful about overwhelming everybody with data. Let’s keep the big picture here and show how the data connects to the strategy. I’m curious about your thoughts: what data do you think that you share as the CMO matters to the c-suite?

Karen Jones: I think it’s really important when you’re trying to sell anything, from digital tools to anything, having one, first customer insights and feedback that have directly come from research that you’ve done and two, showing the habits and behaviors of what your customers are actually doing. The web is such a powerful tool today to be able to show you what customers are searching on, where they’re actually spending their time and what they’re raising their hands to learn more about.

It’s really hard to fight with those facts and statistics, and you are able to narrow down specifically what data points are compelling and important based on what your customers are doing with their experience with you online. Carefully, I agree. Data for data’s sake is never good, but data with an impact that resonates with your customers and observing what your customers are doing, I find wins every time.

Drew Neisser: It’s funny, often the conversations that I have with CMOs is that people say brand is fluffy until the CEO was somewhere where someone says to them, “Hey, I saw that really cool billboard that you did. That made me laugh, thank you so much for that.” So, while data matters, it’s these anecdotes, these stories that still carry the day even in this world of strategy. It’s amazing to me because we would’ve had that same conversation 20 years ago.

Anyways, I want to get at this. You spent some time at DHL and one of the things that we used to say, it was whispered in the halls of JWT, and it was one of these things that that just resonated with me and I can’t tell you why, it’s, “there’s nothing like a great ad to kill a faulty product.” But I never had an example to share and I want you to take us back to the DHL situation. This was several years ago and all those people are probably gone by now. It was a business decision that was made. Talk a little bit about the situation, because this really speaks to the limitations of marketing.

Karen Jones: Not every lesson you learn in business is a resounding success and I actually think you learn more from your failures than you do from your successes in many ways, shapes, and forms. The DHL story is really an interesting one because DHL is probably the largest logistics and express company in the globe, it’s actually bigger than FedEx and UPS, but in the US market, they just didn’t have the capability to domestically deliver a package.

When I went to the company in 2004, we had made an acquisition of another company to get off the ground quickly so instead of organic growth, we did acquisition growth. That would be a good strategy for a lot of companies, but the reality is that we did not have the operational capabilities in the company that we bought to deliver significantly better than the incumbent competition here in the US.

Listen, when you go up against FedEx and UPS, you better bring your Kevlar vests, because those are the behemoths. We strategized about what we needed to do to really come into the market and take over and we did an amazing job with a lot of money to get the brand kicked off in the US. We were here in the US, but it was an international capability only, so when we added the domestic capability, we needed to tell the world that we were a third alternative to the other two big incumbents.

We did some of the most creative advertising I’ve ever done in my life and we actually put the competition in our television commercials because when you’re a third-tier player, you really have nothing to lose by acknowledging your competition. So it was quite aggressive. The moral of the story is that we built more new business than we could actually handle but the challenge was the service level and the product offering just were not good enough to compete with what people were used to from FedEx or UPS.

The old adage, “the quickest way to go out of business is to advertise a bad product,” is really what happened to us in the US and though a lot of great people, a lot of great effort went into it, we just didn’t have the scale and the capability to do and compete with our competition effectively. So huge lesson in what not to do: make sure your products are competitive, reliable, and if you’re going to come in as a third player in the market, make sure you have a better offering than your competition.

Drew Neisser: Or certainly a unique one. We’re going to take a break and then we’re going to come right back and spend a little more time on that because I love the notion. By the way, I’m tired of learning from my mistakes. I’m too old to learn from my mistakes. I really want to learn from my successes. Now, we’ll be right back.


Drew Neisser: Okay, we’re back. And I just want to break the DHL story down before we move on to your current situation because I remember this case very well. I remember when it happened. They bought Tiger, right? What was the name of the company?

Karen Jones: That was some years earlier, but then when I was there, it was the acquisition of Airborne Express.

Drew Neisser: Right. Right. Right. They bought Airborne, which was definitely not necessarily competitive to the tightest ship in the shipping business. You have two brands that have done brilliant marketing and have had the product deliver, but what I think is so interesting and why we can say this was effective marketing is, you created demand. You created demand really quickly and then the customer tried it, but it was like, “Okay, you got me the first time, but you can’t fool me twice and shame on me.” And that is a fascinating and important thing. Marketing did his job and, in fact, did it too well. And maybe, in some cases, this is where marketing, sales, and logistics could work together. Maybe if you hadn’t quite spent so much and worked on a niche and so forth, that maybe you could have worked out the problems. But anyway, that’s all water under the bridge.

I think that if you are a CMO and you are going into a company that doesn’t offer what we’ll call “price of entry service” and “price of entry support” and “price of entry competitive,” marketing can’t fix that. Can we just get that out there? Marketing is not a miracle worker, but this is what’s so interesting about the world that we live in right now—the CMO can actually change things like culture, they can change the way the product goes, because they can take realtime customer feedback over to the product development team and say, “Dudes, this is a problem. If you fix these three things, complaints will go down.” Marketing and product could work together and make things better, but as I said, we’ve got to have a good base level. Don’t put yourself in this situation where you’re this miracle worker unless you have permission to change the service, to change the product and to change the culture.

Okay. Lecture over. Now we can move on to your current situation. You got to Ryder like 6+ years ago, right?

Karen Jones: Yes.

Drew Neisser: And Ryder has been around a long time. It’s big in the truck rental business, right?

Karen Jones: Yes. We do supply chain, logistics, fleet management, and also rental and used vehicle sales, so quite a big portfolio. I think everybody remembers us as a rental truck company when we were in the consumer business but it’s quite a large portfolio outside of rental as well.

Drew Neisser: You know, Ryder was a client of JWT’s when I was there in the 80s.

Karen Jones: Oh really?

Drew Neisser: Yeah. This is how far back I go. I’ve been around.

Now, there’s the big brand and the world is changing and what’s really interesting to me is the role that marketers can play in driving innovation in a company. Talk about where you were and how you started to get to this new innovation that we’re going to talk about in more detail. Set the stage. What was the problem you were trying to solve?

Karen Jones: You said it initially when we started talking about Ryder. It’s an 85-year-old company and you know as well as I do, 85-year-old companies have a really hard time innovating and changing the leopard. Trying to change its spots is difficult sometimes. But I will tell you, Drew, about three and a half years ago, we had a board mandate from our board of directors, which I think was really key in starting to think about the transportation logistics industry.

Where is it headed with the disruption of all these technologies and new capabilities that are coming to play? Think about autonomous, electric vehicles, Airbnb asset sharing, all of that stuff going on in our industry that was largely a very physical industry but moving rapidly to digital and digital capabilities. We were asked to take a look, of all the things that were out there, all the buzz words, IOT, 3D printing, you name it. What were we really going to need to focus on? The list can go on and on.

But as we thought about real threats to our business, what happened was we figured out halfway through the exercise that it actually became a fantastic opportunity.  That’s another interesting point, I think a lot of times companies start out thinking in the negative with the glass half empty, saying, “what if this came in and it threatened this piece of our business?” For us, the glass was half full. We narrowed our focus down to four areas.

One clearly was around big data and that covers a multitude of sends. Another area was in electric and autonomous vehicles. We have 285,000 trucks in our fleet, what if we woke up tomorrow and the world went electric or the world went straight to autonomous? What would that look like for us and what would that do to our business? We also were combating e-commerce on behalf of our customers. Our customers really felt like they didn’t have an alternative to Amazon, so, how could I get my supply chain totally changed around to be able to deliver within two hours to a customer and not have to go through Amazon where the margins are eroding? There was a whole workstream in product development around that.

But the one area that I really wanted to talk about with you was the asset sharing area. We created a product that has just started to blossom, and it has taken off. I’ve had the privilege of leading that product, which is even cooler for a CMO. We call it Airbnb meets Match.com for trucks.

Drew Neisser: Cool. And I know that it has a name and that anybody can download it. So, what’s the name of the app?

Karen Jones: The name of the app is actually COOP by Ryder. Everybody goes, “What does COOP mean?” Well, when we were doing our research and talking to customers about what this was, they kept saying, “Oh, it’s kind of like a co-op,” so the name COOP just stuck. There wasn’t anything more powerful than that, but actually it worked.

So, yeah, this application was really interesting. Again, we did all of our homework around it. We found out that 24% of the time, trucks sit idle. They’re not used, so it’s no different than Airbnb, your vacation homes or not used 100% of the time. How much of that time did they sit idle? And could you actually share your trucks with another business and make money off of being able to share that vehicle?

It is a traditional marketplace in the sense of where marketplaces are headed, and that is where there’s supply and demand. We started the product in Atlanta because there was a huge density of truck volume in that particular market and we’ve grown now through the state of Georgia, we took on all of Florida, and this year we’re headed to Dallas. It has absolutely beaten all of our expectations, but there was a lot of fear and trepidation about doing this particular product, you can imagine.

Drew Neisser: Yeah. And I want to talk about that, because there are always naysayers, particularly in a company that’s been doing one thing really well for a long time. What were some of the barriers that you encountered or hurdles that you had to overcome to even get the prototype made?

Karen Jones: It’s interesting. I might back up just a second and tell you that one of the biggest hurdles that I had was when our CFO at the time, looked at me and said, “Are you crazy? You’re going to cannibalize our rental business by doing this.” I had to fight the good fight on that one and went back again with data and statistics and said “There are 8 million commercial vehicles on the road today, and between us and our biggest competitor, there are only about half a million rental vehicles available to that 8-million-unit market. I don’t think that’s cannibalization at all, I just think there’s a huge market opportunity.”

We talked through all of those concerns. They were worried that our pricing in the market would erode, our price premium, which has not happened. So, we had a lot of hurdles in that regard, internally. I think from a customer perspective though, some of the biggest challenges we had when we started the product out was insurance. What happens if the person that’s using my truck gets into a wreck? How am I covered? We had to go solve for what we called “major friction points and barriers” to get this product delivered. Insurance is one of them.

The other thing is the transfer of the Department of Transportation number, or DOT number. It has to be transferred over to the user of the vehicle, so how were we going to do that? We had other customers who said, “I don’t know if I want to deliver my apples to a grocer in a truck that’s a competitive brand.” What if Whole Foods, I’m just using this as an example, was going to borrow trucks from Wegmans? Would that ever exist, and could people actually overcome the barrier of the brand issue? I think what’s interesting is we found that if you really have a need and you need that capacity, you’re willing to toss the brand to the side and close your eyes for a moment.

Drew Neisser: Isn’t that the truth about marketing in general? Close your eyes and toss brand aside. Move on, we’ve got to get those apples to Wegmans.

Karen Jones: Yeah, because it is a real revenue impact at the end of the day. Examples like that. There were customer barriers, there were internal barriers, but I can tell you that going slowly, using data once again to create matches on our backside of customers that actually had more capacity or less capacity because we have access to that data, was a real help in getting the product off the ground.

Drew Neisser: Okay. We’re going to take a break and when we come back, we’re going to talk about some of the lessons learned, and we are going to inspire every CMO listener to get a skunkworks going to develop something that competes with their current product. We’ll be right back.


Drew Neisser: Okay, we’re back and we’ve been talking about the development of an app, which on first blush might have seemed like you were cannibalizing business. As it turned out, the category is much, much bigger. Second of all, I’m guessing that many of the users of the apps are not necessarily new. What’s the overlap between existing customers and users of the app?

Karen Jones: The nice thing about being a startup in your own company is one of the things you bring to the party is a customer base and I think you should not lose sight of that. A lot of the startups out in California who have great technology ideas don’t have a customer base. They thought of great technology, but they have no one to experiment on, so they come to companies like Ryder and all the big brands to say, “Hey, let us put our technology into your company to explore with your customers.”

That can be somewhat risky at times, but it did give us an advantage that we thought was really important because it got us off the ground. We went to our lease customers and said, “Hey, we know that you don’t use your lease vehicles from us every day during the week, here’s a way for you to monetize those assets, make your lease payment note, and put it into a pool. We vet the drivers. We make the insurance. Sure, the insurance coverage is there, yadda, yadda, yadda, so, it’s very low risk for you with very high reward if you do it.”

Now, initially, we spent time with current customers to get the product off the ground. I would say that for the first six months in each market, we depended heavily on current Ryder customers. So 60 to 75% of our initial transactions were from our own customer base, but what happened was, because the product was so compelling as we started marketing it—doing outdoor billboards, digital advertising, search advertising, all the things that we would expect us to do—we have totally shifted our customer base from current customers who are now 30%, and 70% are brand new customers to the company. It’s an amazing mix and that just gives us the opportunity to continue to upsell other services throughout the Ryder portfolio.

We’re really excited about it. We’ve been in the market now for almost two years, but the adoption and the pace has been really, really encouraging to us and we think it has a lot of legs moving forward.

Drew Neisser: I remember thinking about this when we had our pre-conversation as a framework for this, and then I just blanked, but that’s okay. A lot happens in a pre-call. I want to suggest that this falls into the category of what we call it at Renegade: marketing as service. The idea is that if you think about marketing as a way of delivering a service to existing customers, there’s a wonderful win/win.

I’ll give you an example. American Express created Small Business Saturday and that is a service. They did that so that there was something that would fall between Black Friday and Cyber Monday that would focus attention on small businesses. I think in 2019, it was something like $18 billion in sales on that one day that this program did. It’s marketing that is a service to your customers and the beauty of it is, you feel really good. You can’t go wrong by doing something for your customers.

Karen Jones: Right.

Drew Neisser: And then, the opportunity, once you go there. I’m so glad you mentioned that you marketed it first to customers, because if they don’t get on board, if they don’t see value in it, chances are it’s going to be a problem for you. So you have you two things going on. You have this opportunity to say, “Hey, customers, we’re actually thinking about how to increase your revenue. That’s how we’re spending time. Is that cool? We’re thinking, about you. We’re thinking about your business. 25% of your truck is just sitting there collecting dust, here’s an app that will push it out.”

That’s a very powerful insight. I just want to pause on that for others who are listening. What are you doing? What could you develop that would be of service to your existing customers that would derive more revenue? Small Business Saturday drives revenue. The COOP app drives revenue. Now, it doesn’t sound like old fashioned marketing to me, it sounds like really smart, cutting edge stuff and the tools are available to do it.

I thought it was interesting because you’re a big company and a built-in customer base, but because you’re a big company, you have ways you’ve always done business.

The way you do invoicing, their systems, now here’s an app and suddenly you’ve got different revenue flows and you’ve got security issues and you have things to deal with.

Often those things don’t succeed. I have a friend who’s at a company right now, a giant company and I won’t name the name, where they set up a skunkworks, it was doing great but then they took the head of the skunkworks and put him into the main company. Now you have a culture clash because you have this innovative group and you have the parent company was used to doing business one way.

The parent company is an aircraft carrier that takes five miles to stop, let alone turn. What did you do in this circumstance? What’s some advice about how to go down this road when you’re a big company, to create an innovation that will help your customers do their business when you’ll acquire some operational and cultural changes along the way?

Karen Jones: It is hard, no doubt, and it’s really hard when you pit one part of the organization against another, but for a startup within a large corporation, it is an absolute necessity to take a team of people and sequester them away from the host and give them the room to do what they need to.

The interesting thing is there’s still so much leverage that you get from the mothership, but there’s so much autonomy that needs to happen and flexibility and room to spread your wings and try things differently that comes from creating new innovation like this. The best strategy for us was to go to the guy who ran our rental business and we said, “We want you to come over here and run this new thing,” which was a risk. The guy whose business our CFO thought we were going to cannibalize, probably had the best background for understanding renting vehicles and what was going on. He actually was thrilled to come to do this product and then we hand-picked eleven other people at the initial outset.

We put them in an office in Miami and we opened one in Atlanta and now they have two teams operating out of those locations, but they are not in the corporate headquarters. They are totally separate. They come back in, they come up here to present what’s going on, to get requests for capital expenditure, all the normal processes that you have to do, but they’re allowed their freedom and their creativity. For us, it’s been a great catalyst in hiring the next generation of young people into our industry who are just excited to be working on this kind of technology and these apps and these products. And they don’t have to go to California to do it.

Drew Neisser: Yeah, I think that’s at such an important thing. The value of running innovation and innovative programs and the impact that has on employees, particularly young ones, cannot be underestimated. If you were a company that’s been doing business a certain way, if you don’t have some kind of skunkworks innovation project, you’re going to really struggle.

I love the fact that you mentioned sequestering the team. I don’t know if you’ve seen the movie Ford vs Ferrari?

Karen Jones: Yes, I did.

Drew Neisser: For the listeners, if you haven’t seen it, it’s a wonderful story, and I think it’s a good business story. A marketing guy actually plays the role of the bad guy, but not to spoil this thing, what’s interesting is they try to do it “the Ford way” and they fail. Then they go off and go on their own and they’re given their independence. Sure enough, of course, they had success. I think you could draw that line, that same scenario over and over again when you’re looking for innovation in a big company.

So, first of all, how cool is it for you that, as a CMO at an 85-year-old company, you’ve got this skunkworks app-based future business going that essentially marketing had a really strong role in?

Karen Jones: Absolutely. It’s great. I think the longer-term challenge for us is going to be, and it is for any company Drew, is at what point, if ever, does it come back into the corporation? And going back to your Ford vs Ferrari story, is that the right thing to do? Is it ever the right thing to do or do you actually keep moving forward and spin it out to something very different? It took a lot of conviction from our leadership and I will say, had the CEO not supported this, I’m not sure we would have gotten as far as we did. Having that top-down support for doing these things is really, really critical.

Drew Neisser: I want to wrap up there because no CMO can ever be successful without a CEO that is supportive of the vision and willing to let the marketer run. I also think it was interesting that this was a board-level initiative in terms of looking at the future. And when you used your analogy, Airbnb meets Match, to me what’s interesting is that those weren’t truck rental companies, those were things that were happening in the world that could be relevant to us. I think, as you’re thinking about innovation, get out of your category.

Again, going back to that first part of the conversation, one of the advantages of being a CMO who has worked in other categories is that you know those other categories so you can think like they do. I also just recorded an episode where the final word was “stay curious.” I think that that applies to this situation. You can’t be innovative without staying curious, without looking beyond your category.

Karen, first of all, congrats on getting this innovation off the ground. I imagine there might be some folks out there that need to rent a truck. I think that you’ve summarized this pretty well. I’m going to go back one more time and just sort of reiterate what we got.

If we’re going to innovate, there needs to be some big goals with the CEO and the board of directors driving them, recognizing this intersection of trends and company and opportunity and where you think you as an organization can capitalize on it. You have to build a team. You have to put them in a room somewhere else and allow them the freedom to grow. You talked about going slow. You tested first in one market, then you expanded to others. You addressed the objections as opportunities all along the way. And it’s funny, if there weren’t any objections, it probably wouldn’t have been a very good idea.

Karen Jones: That’s true.

Drew Neisser: Otherwise it’s too easy for everybody else to do too. There have to be some hurdles and, as the leader, you have to be willing to say, “We’ll get through this,” because you have the vision of where you want to go. All right. Karen, thank you so much for being on the show. It’s really been a pleasure talking to you.

Karen Jones: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Drew. And as I always tell my team, “It’s not if, but how.”

Drew Neisser: And speaking of “if,” when you’re done with this show, here’s my question for you, listeners. Are you going to go onto iTunes, give us a rating, share this show with a friend, and put your innovation plan together? I hope you do. And until next time, keep those Renegade Thinking Caps on and strong.