Differentiate or Die: Winning in a Sea of Sameness

[00:00:00] Hello, Renegade marketers. If this is your first time listening, welcome. If you're a regular listener, welcome back.

[00:00:07] You are about to listen to a recording from CMO Huddle Studio, our live show featuring the flocking awesome B2B marketing leaders of CMO huddles. In this episode, Scott Morris, Gary Avance, and Lee Leslie Davis dig into. Real differentiation looks like in B2B, they explore the tension between generating pipeline and building a position that can win bigger deals.

[00:00:37] They also discuss why the best differentiation often starts with customer frustrations and just as important they explain why the work is not done until the whole organization can carry that differentiation forward. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. You'll be supporting our quest to be the number one B2B marketing podcast.

[00:01:04] Alright, let's dive in.

[00:01:05] Welcome to CMO Huddle Studios, the live streaming show dedicated to inspiring B2B awesomeness. I'm your host, drew Nier live from my home studio in New York City, and today we're diving into the holy grail of B2B marketing differentiation, or as one of our guests said, differentiate or die. Because if your brand sounds like everybody else.

[00:01:28] Congratulations, you've earned and entered the commodity zone. So just saying you're customer centric or a trusted partner or AI powered. Breaking news isn't differentiation. It's basically wallpaper. And wallpaper doesn't win deals. True differentiation, bold, precise, and it goes beyond messaging. And often it's a little bit risky.

[00:01:51] And, but when done right, it's the reason that prospects lean in. Your customers stick around and your CFO finally cracks a smile. So how do you stand out in a CA sameness? That's exactly what we're impacting today with. Real world strategies, common pitfalls, and some spicy takes, I hope, from the sharpest CMOs in the business.

[00:02:10] With that, let's bring in Scott Morris, CMO of Sprout Social, and a returning guest who has previously appeared on the show to discuss integrated campaign strategies and landing a CM job. Hello Scott. How are you? And where are you? This fine day.

[00:02:26] Hey Drew, so good to see you again and great to be on your show again.

[00:02:29] I am doing great. I am joining you from my home in Sonoma County, California today, and I know you're in New York. So with the snow and freezing temperatures and so much of the country right now, I will. Not talk about the California weather.

[00:02:44] Yeah, I am just, you know, there should be just a nice bottle of wine right next to you.

[00:02:50] It's all I can say

[00:02:51] a little bit later today, maybe.

[00:02:52] Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, there is some jealousy, but, uh, hey, we like our seasons here. Uh, that's all I can tell you. Alright, so Sprout is known for brand affinity and loyalty. Let's talk about. How much of that comes from the product versus positioning?

[00:03:11] Ooh, product versus positioning. I feel like that's sort of the, uh, classic chicken and egg question. Right. I think though in 2026 kind of feels like the product is the positioning, especially with SaaS companies. I mean, positioning is basically a promise that the product has to keep. Every single day when your users are using the product.

[00:03:33] So if I think about what that means at Sprout, you know, loyalty doesn't just come from having a strong brand or frankly even just having a great product. It really comes from the fact that. The product solves the problems of the modern modern marketer. you know, our positioning has always been at some level it changes over time, of course, but it's kind of been about the power of social.

[00:03:57] and if the product didn't actually make social media easier to manage, easier to do the positioning would, would feel like a lie, right? Because the product experience, if that's frustrating, no amount of clever positioning is gonna save you from that. Yeah.

[00:04:10] Interesting. So in you describe power of social, I mean that's a category notion that if.

[00:04:20] And so if social is an important sprout, isn't it, isn't important, I guess is my takeaway on that. Right? So you guys are making sure that social remains relevant, and if you believe that social is rema is relevant to your marketing challenges, then sprout's your choice.

[00:04:37] Yeah. Well it's, it's, it's actually even more than that, right?

[00:04:40] It's, it's making sure that people understand. Why social is so important, and ma also making social important beyond the comms silo, marketing silo, right? Really having, um, social and social data and the insights that you get from that. Be relevant. To the CMO and even to the C-suite.

[00:04:57] That's something that we're spending a lot of time on is how do you make that more relevant to the rest of the C-suite to a board? And that's why we're really sort of anchoring on what we're calling social intelligence and really trying to redefine that. And that's our big, you know, big differentiator is really redefining that as being, you know, all of the data that you get from social and how that can actually, give you insights that will let you make.

[00:05:18] Real-time decisions on your business. So it's not just about like someone liking your post or, or even the virality of maybe a social post. It's not about that. It's really about the data and the insights that you get and how those can be relevant to business decision making in C-Suite. So that's really how we're trying to differentiate and social intelligence is sort of the.

[00:05:39] The thing that we're really, uh, rallying around there.

[00:05:41] I have to share a story that's just so painful as you were talking about social intelligence and, and so, and this happened when it was running the agency and we had two clients who had national campaigns that launched. Uh, and they were very excited about a big agencies doing these things.

[00:05:55] And we knew they were dead on arrival through social media. Yeah. And it was actually a very painful place. As with that time. We were the social agency. It was like, what are they gonna do? But, uh, the notion that this social intelligence you've gotten provided feels very powerful. What's that actually look like and do. Are you finding that CMOs, are waking up to the importance of social intelligence?

[00:06:21] I think it varies pretty wide widely. I think you have, um, CMOs who totally get it and they really understand, the power of social and they're really building a lot of the things in their marketing work around that and leveraging those insights and leveraging those.

[00:06:36] Beyond just social and really across their campaigns, their positioning, product portfolio. That's another area that we certainly use social, uh, social intelligence for. we're seeing a lot more companies do that as well, actually using it to inform their product roadmap. and so again, I think it, it varies.

[00:06:52] I think you've got, you know, we, it's part of our sort of vision statement. We like to talk about, um, that we are social intelligence for breakthrough brands. Breakthrough brands doesn't necessarily just mean a really big brand. It doesn't even necessarily just mean a, you know, digital native modern, maybe AI native brand.

[00:07:07] It really can be an SMB, it can be a large company. a, a brand that really has embraced, social intelligence as something that they believe can fuel their business. Uh, that's also why our, you know, our tagline isn't, uh, it doesn't say the future of business is social. It says all business is social, because that's, that's a reality today.

[00:07:27] So it just, it's, it is fascinating. So many different things going through in mind, but obviously if you don't wanna be a breakthrough brand. Knock yourself out going,

[00:07:34] who doesn't wanna be a breakthrough brand.

[00:07:35] I know. Exactly. So, uh, uh, social intelligence for breakthrough brands, uh, is certainly saying, oh, I wanna be a breakthrough brand, I love the notion that social intelligence is really product intelligence and that you can, do that in that you're doing that yourself and of course drinking your own champagne. what's that really? Look like and connect the dots a little bit because I'm imagining that if you get some learning and social intelligence and you make the product better, that's re then you're sort of in a way differentiating a along the way as a result of using these tools.

[00:08:10] Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I think that what you wanna be doing is you wanna be leveraging all of the, social data that's out there, right? Which you get through lots of things. You get it through what you see on your own channels. You get it through social listing, you get it through real time media monitoring.

[00:08:25] There's so many. Different, angles to that. And then you bring all of that together. And this is like the hard part, and this is where I think people tend to trip up a little bit, is how do you take all of those signals, and from all of that data, all of those signals synthesize that into real insights that you can then take action on?

[00:08:42] Because otherwise it's just noise, right? Yeah. And so, the ability, and, and that's where even if people aspirationally or brands, or. CMOs aspirationally see the value in social intelligence and how it can impact their business, what they're looking for from a company like Sprout. And again, it's another way we try to differentiate is really showing up as the partner who can help, lead the way for them.

[00:09:03] And you know, you mentioned drinking your own champagne. We have a big focus on that. Uh. Not just literally drinking the champagne, but being customer zero is what I like to say. Right, right. And really, being the best po possible example of how a brand can lead and do this. And so a lot of the work that we do is actually focused on.

[00:09:21] That storytelling and, and sharing what worked for us in terms of social intelligence and how it did impact our business. Where we failed, where we screwed up things, where the product, uh, didn't deliver the way we needed to or that we wanted it to, and workarounds that we used, that then feeds into our product roadmap and how the product can be better at helping you do these things.

[00:09:40] We give templates to marketers to help them bring all of this data together to do great storytelling to their CMO or to their board. That's all a really big piece of it.

[00:09:48] What I like about this conversation so far is it feels like the differentiation that we're talking about is not a moment in time based on features, but it's aspirational that in theory, your description of your differentiating components is not something you're gonna change every week based on product input. Right.

[00:10:11] Oh, that's right. Yeah. I don't think it is something that should change every week, right? This is something that you want to be really aspirational. You want to be really forward looking, uh, if you wanna lead the market, that's sort of the approach that you have to take and That whole other thing, by the way, if you wanna actually create a new category, um, which is a whole other level of differentiation, I think. but there's, you know, there's trying to dominate a category that already exists and then there's trying to create a new category, right? And lead it and define it.

[00:10:40] Alright, well, we'll be back with that. But now let's bring on, uh, Gary Savant, who is the CMO of Nitris and an industry expert who's graced our stage before to delve into many topics like AI's impact on marketing, building, marketing teams, and pipeline playbooks. Hello, Gary. Wonderful to see you again.

[00:10:59] Hi Drew.

[00:10:59] Great to see you as well.

[00:11:01] And, uh, so how are you and where are you This fine day? I'm doing amazing. And I'm in beautiful Los Gatos, California enjoying sunny, beautiful weather.

[00:11:11] Oh, you West Coast people. Okay. All right. Just rub it in. Fine, fine. I'm gonna take it out on you though. I just want you to know I remember these things, so.

[00:11:20] You're marketing a highly technical product. What's differentiation and how are you crafting differentiation that resonates with both the sort of business and technical buyers?

[00:11:30] differentiation is really core for technical products, especially nowadays where the markets are overcrowded and, uh, there are a lot of companies trying to say the same thing, so.

[00:11:43] creating true differentiation is critical. Let me give you an example of, uh, a differentiation we created and what the impact it had, and then I'll talk a little bit about how did we do that, right? Sure. So when I was in a company called K, uh, we was a phenomenal company, in Boise, Idaho. we were struggling in a very crowded market where, it was a fraud, uh, product, we were stopping, uh, fraudulent identities and fraudulent transactions for many very, very large companies.

[00:12:14] And a lot of, retailers, and other industries relied on the product. However, uh, the way we positioned was, As a fraud tool, a lot of other companies were out marketing us and, uh, the growth was stalled. we had a fantastic CEO founder who was a true visionary. And, overall the product was fantastic and in my conversations with him.

[00:12:36] He was talking about that it's not just fraud tool, it's so much more than that. It's you know, identity, it's more about network. so that was the first component, speaking with technical people, with founders, truly understanding where, what their passion is, how do they see the differentiation.

[00:12:53] the second part was speaking with customers. I had like 10, 15 conversations with customers and our customers kept telling that, Hey guys. Your fraud tools are really good, but the real value is that you have a big network of, uh, companies that, uh, you know, these identities, these, credit cards, you know, fraudsters or, or good people.

[00:13:15] We can actually, you, you have that. So when we, buy your product, we sort of join a network and we, we see that that's a huge value. the third part of the equation is really. passion and technical storytelling. So we started thinking and, uh, doing a lot of experiments, and we landed on this thing that we called Identity trust Network.

[00:13:36] instead of, talking about, you know, you buying a fraud product, we came up with this term that you, you're joining a network. Joining a network of Identity Trust, it's powered by the biggest companies out there, you know, like, you know, staple and Barclays and Chase. And now your fraud decisions are amplified by.

[00:13:56] Knowledge across all these companies. So, when we launched that, I mean, it was a major launch. It was repositioning of the company, and we'll talk more about it later, how we work with sales department and, you know, others. But we really changed the way we talk about things. How we position, how we, uh, what is our narrative, our website, you know, how we talk to customers, partners, analysts, right?

[00:14:18] And that made a huge difference. Uh, we started, talking in a different way, attracting different customers, much larger customers. Our deal size increased, our velocity increased, you know, our growth went from like negative to over a hundred percent and like year and a half. And then another year or so later, we got acquired by Equifax where the value of the company went.

[00:14:42] from, I don't know, like 80 to a hundred million dollars to the acquisition was for $640 million, which was a great story. And I would say that differentiation, it was one of the main culprits of that success.

[00:14:56] I, I love that story. And it's, it's really helpful context because you, you went from just another fraud product to redefining what it is that you are offering, uh, an an identity trust network, essentially kind of creating a category of one, if you will.

[00:15:14] and. Again, it is like, yeah, do you want to go solo or do you want to be part of this thing? It's a very easy idea to grasp. but uh, the fact that you were able to adopt that and, uh, you know, that, that ultimately that led to a a, a big exit is, uh, is impressive. And, and I think that's often an under as there.

[00:15:35] There's also something incredibly simple about that. Positioning. Right? I mean, as a, it was very clear and like you could have gone into technically why it was 'cause it's technical buyers, but you didn't need to, right?

[00:15:49] Yeah, absolutely. And it was a lesson learned for me because my first VP of marketing opportunity, you know, I did everything but that.

[00:15:57] Uh, right. Uh, we did this phenomenal demand generation engine. It was state of art, and we went from zero, like, not zero, like 1 million to like 15 million in like year and a half or two but we missed the big story, the big differentiation, sort of like either dominating or creating the category and the, the growth at some point stalled.

[00:16:20] So, uh, that was a lesson learned, right?

[00:16:22] The point that you were just making is so interesting because I do think that there are a lot of demand gen marketers out there who feel like if they get their demand gen engine, in theory running that they've done their job.

[00:16:34] And yeah, in some ways they, they've done some of the job, but truly helping a company differentiate as a game changer.

[00:16:41] Absolutely. Yeah, a hundred percent. it's always a combination, right? Of like, Hey, we need to generate demand now and we need to, get things going. And then also differentiating.

[00:16:52] And that's a very tough balance at times. Because the demand on CMOs for pipeline, for revenue is now, and that's the way actually it worked in count too. I remember my, our, my first board meeting was like two, three weeks, in the company. you know, the board was, you know, pointing the finger at the CCRO saying that.

[00:17:10] We need to, you know, to bring this kind of salespeople. And, you know, I raised my hand. I said, Hey, the problem is not with, the CRO. The problem is pipeline. We don't have the coverage. And then all ice turned on me like, so when you gonna create a pipeline, right? So the pipeline is sort of like a, uh, like allowance, like a permission.

[00:17:29] To create more strategic type of things. So that's one of the first things we did. We generated the pipeline, but again, if we did not strategically differentiate and, build that, uh, we would've never accomplished the exit we wanted and like that leap that we accomplished.

[00:17:46] Well, and I, and I think there's a really, really important thing, uh, uh, to sort of summarize that.

[00:17:51] Because you had a differentiated approach to the market. your deal size got bigger, your close rate improved. So if you don't have that, you have pipeline. Yeah. But you're not getting the big deals. You're not closing. And so the notion that you can build a pipeline without differentiation. Yeah. In theory you can get some swings.

[00:18:12] Yes. But your win rate's not gonna be very good. Because now suddenly you're the same as everybody else and you're, you're competing on price. And, and that's where we started this conversation, which is differentiate or die hundred. I love it. All right. Well, Gary, thank you for that. I love that case history.

[00:18:29] We're gonna keep going and bring on, uh, Leslie Davis, who's been patiently waiting, to join this conversation. Leslie is a senior marketing executive, has previously joined us to shed light on. Building and nurturing mark marketing teams. Hello, Leslie, welcome back.

[00:18:45] Hey, drew, thank you so much for having me.

[00:18:47] I, I really enjoy doing these with you.

[00:18:49] how are you and where are you this fine day?

[00:18:52] I am, well, I am not enjoying California weather, but I am in New Orleans and we have 12 days of Mardi Gras. Going strong. So parade. WI?

[00:19:02] No beads on you?

[00:19:04] No, not yet yet.

[00:19:05] Come on.

[00:19:06] I know tonight's the first big parade night, so,

[00:19:09] got it.

[00:19:09] All right.

[00:19:10] Call me tomorrow.

[00:19:10] Well, yeah, next show. I want beads. All right. Yeah. Just for the, for the record. So let's talk about differentiation in a commoditized industry, like engineering, for example.

[00:19:24] Yeah, hugely important. It's really funny because a lot of the engineers will feel that saying they can do it the best and or we can do it all.

[00:19:34] A differentiator. in my previous role, it was a real learning curve to teach them. That's not a differentiator at all. So we did go through the entire branding process and came up with A-U-S-P-A persona, all of that. But to translate it to the land of RFPs, which is imperative and services spaces, right?

[00:19:52] There's always things written. And the RFP and things that are unwritten in that RFP always, there's more to the story than here's the scope we need. So ensuring that we've done our work to meet with these people and learn the problems behind. What's written for scopes is imperative. And then from that point, assuming you've got your brand recognition and brand penetration and then know you as a brand, it's really taking every single project in the RFP every project on every resume in the RFP, every part of your, executive summary in the RFP and Mary y, your brand USP, and promise to their problem with that value prop.

[00:20:29] And if you can do that, you've won them over every time.

[00:20:33] Interesting. And, and so this is, it's kind of like where differentiation meets the rubber meets the road. Because in theory, an RFP means I am a, competing with 3, 4, 5 different companies who have all been called engineering firms, right?

[00:20:48] You're all in the same bucket. So, uh, your toothpaste for a moment.

[00:20:52] And not only that, because of. This industry, all the projects are public knowledge because all the budgets are public knowledge. So you're really competing with sometimes 50, 60, 70 engineering firms. But a lot of them, again, they can do it better and they can do it all in one place, all in house.

[00:21:09] And that's not going to stand out when you've got somebody reviewing 50, 60, 70 of these.

[00:21:14] Wow. And so. I would imagine that, yes, as you described it, the differentiation needs to run through it, but at some point you're giving them a price and a schedule and all the other things that everybody else, and it's gonna look very similar.

[00:21:27] I mean, but, and it's interesting 'cause that is the moment, right? You, you got on the list, which obviously, but at this point you really, so talk a little bit more on the, about the things that you could do in this very, this moment of truth. They're reading an RFP. It's like, how do you stand out? How do you differentiate?

[00:21:48] And, and I, you talked about learning, uh, and, and getting the, the problem behind the problem, but I'm just curious how that showed up.

[00:21:56] What does that look like?

[00:21:57] Yeah.

[00:21:57] Yes. So you know, prior to the RFP coming out, we've been providing the materials, the landing pages, the LinkedIn, the thought leadership, all of the things that boost the story we're going to tell, and we're making sure the clients are seeing what they need to see prior to, but along the way, we're listening.

[00:22:17] So my example would be right of way, In the RFP, it's gonna be right of way scopes. But what we've learned along the way, while we're showing how we're great at right of way with with our USP, our very specific USP and our people living that USP, et cetera, we've also learned the property owner for some of this right of way is extremely difficult to work with for whatever the reasons could be.

[00:22:35] We've also learned there's a ton of infrastructure already under the ground there, but not well documented. We don't really know what's there. All of those are massive problems when you're trying to. Perform whatever service it might be, be it a new roadway, a new water treatment plan, a new wa, wastewater, what have you.

[00:22:51] So the scope is going to say, design, engineering, construction management, including right of way as built, blah, blah, blah, right? It's just those three words. But we know our client is losing sleep because. Of this right of way and some other things always, but this is their biggest challenge. We know this.

[00:23:09] So as we've learned this further, we've continued growing our marketing materials to them, a BM style, right? here's where we've experienced unknown infrastructure with right of way. Just, you know, we've had that discussion. We've had them meet with the subject matter experts, and when the RFP comes out, The entire story might evolve around. We're transforming communities, assisting in finding funding to ensure projects get done and, eliminating right of way challenges via X, Y, Z. And the approach speaks to that. Our data speaks to that. Maybe more, maybe most people would show more water treatment plan experience.

[00:23:45] We're gonna show two or three specific right of way experiences.

[00:23:49] So you have the relevant, the cases that they're gonna go, oh, I see myself. You solved this problem for me.

[00:23:54] Correct. I wanna, with our USB we debt. Very important.

[00:23:57] Right? And then, and then let's make, that's the key thing here. And I'm just because.

[00:24:03] you in marketing may or may not be writing these RFPs. You may or may not be weighing in on it. And it's easy to imagine, and this is often happens at B2B, is, you have rogue salespeople who sell what they think is gonna work, and they're not necessarily even selling against the differentiation. So now we get to culture and values and making sure that everybody gets.

[00:24:25] This is why we exist, this is what makes us special. And I'm just talk a little bit about that, how that played into, the last few years for you.

[00:24:33] Yes. I think part one is there was no. Brand like Wagner where I was, did not have any branding written out. I mean they had their color palette, but Right.

[00:24:44] They had never gone through a true Who are We Exercise. And so the first thing was going through that process with the primary, the secondary this, the committee, et cetera, coming up with it. But then from there it was educating everyone saying, Hey. This is our brand. This is our persona. This is our tone and voice.

[00:25:01] This is our brand promise. These are the things we believe in, and most importantly, in any science backed world, here's how we got there. I didn't wake up and say, you know what? I'm gonna make up a brand promise today because that's imperative and. Everybody bought in and they did believe it because it was true for them, because we had an internal committee and we had our primary research in front of them to say, this is who we are.

[00:25:23] Every new hire was trained on that. It's on our intranet. You can look at it anytime you wish, and it's just setting up and of course presenting it like this is why we're excited as far as. From there, people were sort of living our brand 'cause they already believed in it from day one, they were already the brand.

[00:25:41] And there's a psychology between people reading what it is and experiencing what it is and our people or how they were Experience. The brand and I think our repeat business, our upsales and our massive contracts in totally new geographies and or with new services, really proved that the people with their feet on the ground were living the brand that we were promising the clients to begin with.

[00:26:03] I love it. And what's interesting about the conversation so far is that we've gone from SaaS and then we got into cybersecurity, and then we're talking about services, which are obviously very different businesses, but there is a commonality in that when you are clear. About your differentiation. You have a chance of winning more often.

[00:26:22] Uh, and ideally if your differentiation is better, you not only win more often, but you get more opportunities to win because people understand, oh yeah, well these guys, this is where they're, this is what they're about. and did you find at any point in time that this was bigger than engineering?

[00:26:38] Oh yes. Always, always. And part of it, again, these are public projects. They're affecting the general public. They're making their lives better. sometimes we have to remind the public why their lives will be better as a result. But yes, it was far beyond engineering. We're, you know, you're giving people drinking water, you're making sure they have enough drinking water, you're making sure the wastewater is okay.

[00:27:01] You're giving them roadways that will ensure buses of children. Ambulances and et cetera can get to and from as they need to. It's, way bigger than just selling some engineering.

[00:27:11] I love it. Alright, well now it's time for me to talk about sm o huddles. One of my favorite topics, launched in 2020 SM O Huddles is the only community of flocking us B2B marketing leaders.

[00:27:23] And that has a logo featuring penguins. Wait, what? Well, a group of these curious, adaptable, and problem solving birds is called a huddle, and the leaders in CMO huddles are all that and more huddling together to conquer the toughest job in the C-suite. There's a pun in there if you paid attention. Anyway, Scott, Gary, Leslie, you are all incredibly busy marketing leaders.

[00:27:47] I'm wonder wondering if you could share a specific, maybe recent example of how CMO Huddles has helped you? Anybody. Wanna volunteer?

[00:27:56] You know, there are a lot of CMO communities out there, And for me, one of the biggest values I get out of CMO huddles is the peer-to-peer connection. But I don't mean that in gen in a generic way. What I mean is. Having the opportunity to meet, build relationships with other CMOs and marketing leaders who have solved a problem that I am struggling with and who can help me find my way and are willing to help me find my way.

[00:28:18] and most recently this happened as we were struggling with, implementing AI SDRs. Very hot topic with a lot of marketing teams right now. We had been using the technology for a little while, very mediocre results. So I actually through a combination of a contacts that I made at the super huddle in November, which is an awesome event.

[00:28:38] It was my first time attending that last year. As well as some of the insightful posts I've seen in the Slack channel and some other guests you've had on your show. I was able to basically connect with I think maybe a half dozen hustlers, and I did. 30 minute zooms with each of them. They were so willing to share all of their experience and ultimately ended up, influencing the de the decision that we made.

[00:28:59] And we went with a totally different vendor and to have a completely different strategy with our AI tech stack for presales Now.

[00:29:05] I love it. I, I also have sidebar, why don't I talk to you about where you ended up, but that's something different. Uh, that's really cool. I, uh, appreciate that. And it is, it's funny you have to ask, us to, but, but the fact that you did and you had all these meeting is fantastic.

[00:29:19] So thank you. We really appreciate that Uh, Gary, you're up.

[00:29:23] Yeah, absolutely. a huge difference in. getting, uh, the best minds thoughts and best practices. What I mean by that is that, listen, in the end of the day, we're just one CMO driving one company. And yeah, we, I mean, we've done this many times before, but the market is changing so fast and, uh, the technology is changing so fast that.

[00:29:46] There are a lot of new best practices, especially in the ai, A-I-O-G-E-O, you know, tool space that it's very hard to keep up, you know, even if you're like, focused on that a lot. The fact that, uh, we have this mastermind of people that are trying things and the, and, uh, recommending and sharing things.

[00:30:05] It's huge because now when I talk to my team members, when a question comes up, Hey, how about this type of technique? And I may have not had an experience, but, uh, the, uh, fellow CMOs on huddles have talked about it, and let's say it didn't work for them. Right. Like, for example, certain type of LinkedIn advertising, right?

[00:30:25] generate primary demand, right? Instead of going into that experiment and wasting like months of time you know, going, trying to find answers on chat GPT that, are coming from questionable sources or hallucinations, you know, uh, you have actual people who've tried and things worked or didn't work, and that's a huge value.

[00:30:44] Yeah. Well, we really, uh, really appreciate you. You've been with us for a long, long time as a member. Uh, Leslie, anything, uh, anything you wanna add in here?

[00:30:52] Just echoing what I've heard, and I will say, I think one of the best parts for me personally is we're all in different industries, different spaces, different company sizes.

[00:31:03] And so when we get in the small group meetings and you get to hear. Five or tens perspectives, even though we always have a lot on our plates. It gives, it gives you some ideas that maybe aren't, hot for you right now, but could be so you can start working towards them. Um, the different perspectives have been incredible.

[00:31:21] Uh, I love it. And, uh. I so appreciate, uh, the three of you, uh, sharing those comments. I, I did wanna mention most of what huddles has been doing in the past has been virtual except for our super huddle. But we are going on the road with our strategy labs, may, we're doing the Midwest, Chicago, uh, Dallas and Austin. So, uh, if you happen to be listening and you're in one of those markets, check it out. We also, speaking of AI SDRs, Amanda Kalo from, uh, one Mind is doing a keynote in all of those, so super excited.

[00:31:51] Check those out. Uh, you can find out more@cmohuddles.com and if you're a B2B marketing leader. Who wants to grow a stronger network? Uh, gain recognition as a thought leader and get your very own stress. Penguin. Uh, do yourself a favor and join us@cmohuddles.com. Okay, that was a lot. Thank you. so. It feels like there's a line here between differentiation and risk PO positioning.

[00:32:15] I don't know. I mean, I, I de I'm just gonna go back, but pick on you, uh, Scott for a second. I mean, social intelligence for breakthrough brands, there's it doesn't feel that risky. It just feels really smart. so I don't know, have I answered my own question here?

[00:32:29] Well, what is your question? Is it really, like, what, what's the difference?

[00:32:32] Is there, I mean, the difference between differentiation and, and sort of risky positioning?

[00:32:36] Yeah. I mean, I, I guess the, the question, and we always talk about marketers needing courage and so forth, but when we talk about sort of a clear differentiation and, and your positioning, they, they don't necessarily have to be, they have to be different, and they have to be clear.

[00:32:53] Yeah, but I don't know if they have to be risky.

[00:32:55] they don't have to be risky necessarily. Right. Right. I mean, I think you can have really bold differentiation where you sort of take a stand for how work should be done. and I'll give. The example, you know, sprout, we're sort of about that sort, you know, bold idea that social data should be at the center of the enterprise.

[00:33:11] We talked about that a little bit not just in a marketing silo, right? So like that is bold. From our perspective, that's a bold bet that we're willing to make because we really, really believe, that it's the future. Whereas risky positioning is different to me. Yeah. That's when you're making a promise that maybe your product can't keep.

[00:33:29] I think that would be a good example. Yeah. Of, of risky positioning. Or I think maybe, uh, and we talked about this a little bit with ai, 'cause of course can't not talk about ai. Uh, when you chase a hype cycle. Right, like gen AI without a really, really clear, benefit to the user. Right. Uh, and if you pivot your entire brand identity, uh, all around a trend that might be gone in 18 months, you're not being bold, you're being reckless, I think in that case. one thing that I use a lot in terms of a filter, in terms of whether something makes sense, whether it's positioning or differentiation, is the filter that I use is, does this amplify our customer's voice? Or does it only amplify our own voice?

[00:34:11] Because if the positioning moves us or, or makes us the hero and doesn't make the customer the hero, I think that's when it becomes kind of risky.

[00:34:20] It's interesting that taking the stand part, and I guess this is where, I think it was Andy Cina who talked about if you're thought leadership, no one's arguing with it.

[00:34:28] It's not thought leadership. And so that's about taking a stance. Somebody has to disagree with it, otherwise it's, yeah. If everybody nods their hand and goes, yeah, that's right. then you haven't moved the conversation forward. So I guess that's where taking a stand is a great way to think about this.

[00:34:43] versus risky. 'cause it, there are people who are gonna disagree that social should be the center of the enterprise. Right. And they should, because otherwise the greater risk is always trying to be all things to all people. Right. I guess we can agree there.

[00:34:55] Okay. Let's move on from that. Well, a line of thinking and let's talk about aligning. And so, what does it really take? Assuming you found this differentiation to get everybody to sing off the same sheet of music. Gary, you wanna weigh in on that?

[00:35:12] Yeah, absolutely. the way I'm thinking about it, there are two stages of aligning.

[00:35:16] The one stage is, when you're creating the message, and the second one is when you're, getting internal buy and then launching, right? for aligning, I think it's really important to remember that what is differentiation, right? Uh, if you remember the, old classic book, the battle of, uh, differentiation, the battle for your Mind, the differentiation is truly happening in the mind of your perspective buyers, and it's really critical in that to first aligned with ICP. To truly understand, what is that you want to differentiate and does it really matter to them? And how the, what are the emotions and you know, what really that triggers in their minds? And is it credible or is it just my opinion, or it's just company's opinion, right?

[00:35:58] that's really important to understand. And with that knowledge, you know, you work with, the people who created that differentiation. And more importantly, we'll continue to create that differentiation, right? because the differentiation becomes kind of like a company strategy moving forward.

[00:36:13] And then, once you create that, you test that. And the, uh, the second part is really, uh, making sure that everybody's aligned, right? Because in the end of the day, salespeople are gonna sell that differentiation. Right. And technical support people are gonna support it. Industry analysts are gonna be talking and amplifying that, So there is a huge part of working with all these different parties where you're, making sure that everything is line. And I'll give you, uh, interesting anecdote, right? When. one of the companies I was talking about, we created Identity Trust Network. everybody was aligned, everything was great.

[00:36:48] And we had a board meeting where I was presenting that. And, a couple of board members like, huh, network, what are you talking about? We're not Cisco at this. Company like Why network? I'm like, well, and I showed the data that this is what our customers want. And there was, you know, pretty chill, uh, uh, reception of that.

[00:37:09] And interestingly enough, we had a very big executive customer summit the next day, which is the same next morning actually, where the board members were. Present. And I got one of the industry analysts, uh, opening that and he started, he showed the research data confirming the direction we're going and our customers were talking how much they love this messaging.

[00:37:32] And, in the break, the first break. most vocal board member that against, this messaging stopped by and said, Gary, you know what? I'm really sorry. Like, I can now clearly see where you're going with this positioning. This makes so much sense. I'm saw such a big supporter, and that was a huge relief.

[00:37:49] And, uh, the, the rest was fantastic. So yeah, the alignment is critical, in all these stages.

[00:37:54] Yeah, I, and I, I love that story, and inevitably, as a CMO, you are going to run into somebody who doesn't get that. Yes. And I, I think that's a important part of the role And, you know, I'm curious, uh, Scott, how, you know, you now look, you're marketing to marketers and at Sprout, and so most likely you have a savvy group of folks in the boardroom, uh, in appreciate the, the power of a, of being differentiated.

[00:38:25] But you've worked at other places that may not have, and I'm just curious, what have you found in, in terms of. Helping people understand the notion of differentiation in the specific idea or place that you're going. With a differentiated idea like social intelligences, for breakthrough brands?

[00:38:46] I think people fundamentally, you know, do understand the need to have strong differentiation. I mean, even if, even if our board members. Didn't know our business very well, which they very, very much do. We have some really high powered former CMOs, in fact, on our board board who will forever know more than I do about marketing.

[00:39:03] Um, but they definitely, all appreciate the value of having a strongly differentiated brand. I mean. All of us are in intensely competitive situations, right? I mean, Leslie mentioned different size companies, different industries entirely. but all of us are facing intense competition. in our space we've got a couple of big players who are, you know, similar in size and scoped to us, and then we've got like a whole.

[00:39:27] Slew of, I'm not gonna say ankle biters, but you know, smaller, smaller companies that want to be the companies like us in the future. Right. And so I think most people understand the need to have that strong differentiation. I think that, in terms of getting that stakeholder alignment, for me, it's never been a, a struggle at the.

[00:39:43] board level. Okay. I think sometimes at the product level it can be a little bit tricky. because as the CMO, I feel like sometimes our job is to figure out how to bridge that gap between like marketing and market vision, which includes your differentiation and everything else. And roadmap reality, like what the product is actually delivering.

[00:40:02] And I think, one of those board members that I mentioned who was a high powered, CMO in a past life, talked to me about how the CMO really needs to be the voice of the customer at scale. And you have to bring those insights to the board. You have to bring those insights to the broader organization, to your product team.

[00:40:17] and I think that can be really powerful and that I've, I've learned through that to, you know, instead of coming to my product team saying, Hey. Maybe can we build this feature? Instead, I say something like, Hey, our customers are struggling to prove ROI to their boards. How can we solve that in a way that only Sprout can?

[00:40:36] And so that really, helps with our differentiated narrative as well.

[00:40:41] Yeah. And I think this is the moment where, The product, conversations and influencing that, particularly in, in a sa but it's probably true in everything is is that the words that you used only Sprout can. Right.

[00:40:55] And that permeates just about. Everything that you do in creating product development. And I just wonder if, for the CMOs who are listening to this, how many of them can articulate and, and say, you know, our company and then follow that only our company can X. and if you don't have that, it feels like you don't have a North star and therefore the product, people can just say, well, I think this is a cool feature, let's do it.

[00:41:23] Also, other companies will do a really good job of copying you if you're doing it really well. Right. We had that at Zendesk where we had a very differentiated brand and a very differentiated product, and then it was like a couple years later and we realized. Hmm. All those competitors had literally copied our brand, our look and feel, even the colors of our website and a lot of the usability of the product.

[00:41:42] And that's when we decided it was time to do a complete refresh on how we talked about the company, because we thought we were differentiated, but then we took all of our, Messaging, right? And we would swap out our competitors' names and it felt just as true.

[00:41:55] So this is a double-edged sword. If you have a great positioning and, and you get it out of the market, the chances are someone, uh, your competitors are gonna copy it.

[00:42:03] So that's gotta be very gratifying. But it also means, oh, sugar, we gotta do it again.

[00:42:08] But, but if, if they copy you, then it means you, you were doing the right thing. Right? Right. That's exactly what you would want. But yeah, it makes your job harder.

[00:42:16] Yeah. I'm curious, Leslie, as you, as you're hearing about this, I mean, this permeating differentiation, so finding it is the hard part, permeating it is, is probably, and then on a continuous basis feels like that, uh, a big challenge.

[00:42:35] It is I say you always have to start with an inventory of what you even have, such that you can add what you've just discovered as your USPN differentiator, that's most important. And then to be a leader, you have to be a dreamer. What else do we need that we don't have to weave this into, and how do we prioritize that to get the most ROI?

[00:42:56] In the most impactful way to help our customers. it is not easy, you have to have that roadmap and that vision, that marketing plan, if you wanna bore it down a little, you've gotta have that to sort of know where you're going.

[00:43:09] I love it. So as a leader, you have to be a dreamer.

[00:43:11] I love that. Just. That's just a headline there, but I also, so that made me think, okay, well, as a leader and a dreamer, it feels like, and we haven't mentioned the word AI other than AI washing so far, it feels like there's a moment right now where you can empower your teams and your so forth to help them constantly be thinking about differentiation.

[00:43:33] In very fresh ways, in, in, in new ways of doing it thanks to ai. Is that playing out at all, Gary? At, at, at your company? Yeah. That's, that you can link sort of AI activities with furthering your differentiation.

[00:43:48] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh, I wanna start with a point, Uh, that, attracted me to my current company.

[00:43:55] what was very interesting and fresh, right? Uh, so what we're seeing, uh, is the product market f shifting quite a bit. With ai and you've seen lately with, an anthropic new features, a lot of companies are losing a lot of value and a lot of things can be changed and replicated. So I really believe differentiation starts with the founder, you know, in a core belief of technology.

[00:44:21] In, in the company I work in right now, net, it's a network automation for ai. you know, the founder's core belief is like, Hey, I'm gonna start with differentiation and such a differentiated product market fit that, you know, the marketing, you know, once we build the message, you know, it really carries.

[00:44:38] But I think, there are two areas of continuous differentiation. One is, again, from technology and founders and, you know, perspective strategically keep on innovating, keep on building on that leadership because. the change cycles are so fast right now that if you don't do that, no matter how you position and how you message, that, you know, you may lose your differentiation like within mere two or three months, right?

[00:45:02] So it, it's really critical to have that DNA in the company. Then, to answer your question, it's really important on the marketing side to have the DNA of being very tightly coupled with, the differentiation on the product side, and, turn that into messaging, and, uh, go to market motion.

[00:45:23] to, keep ahead and continue tweaking and differentiation without disrupting things and sounding that you're going left and right all the time. And AI is one of those, you know, tools that helps you do that. Right? You like, you know, creating agents and, training your teams to constantly be on the lookout, right?

[00:45:41] On what's changing and what is the sentiment of your buyers and your partners. And, uh, the news, uh, and constantly being that voice that keeps that differentiation ahead of competitors.

[00:45:53] Yeah, it's interesting as you're talking, I was sort of thinking, God, if we're doing this every three months, God forbid, we're not really at a high enough level.

[00:46:01] I gotta, I gotta believe that if you're building a long-term brand, you know, a company, I, I just struggle with this notion that every three months you're gonna be, yeah, you may have to upgrade your features, but if you're. Positioning has to, uh, change, uh, that often. Wow. That's, uh, that's gonna be a, problem long term.

[00:46:17] But anyway, let's get to final words of wisdom. Leslie, you're up first for CMOs when it comes to differentiating your business.

[00:46:24] I. I think once you figured out your differentiation, take the time to really educate everyone and ensure it's continuous. we get busy sometimes and things fall through the cracks, but never let that happen for your own employees so that everyone can carry that brand forward.

[00:46:41] I love it. All right. We're gonna just make sure that it sinks deep into the organization. Okay, Scott, final word of wisdom.

[00:46:48] my final word would be that you, you don't find differentiation by looking in the rearview mirror at what your competitors are doing, in my opinion. You find it by looking at your customer's biggest unvoiced frustrations, and then having the courage to build a brand that says.

[00:47:05] We see you, we agree with you, and we're doing it differently. you know, aim to be the only one who does it the way that you can do it, like we talked about earlier. and speaking of ai, that's a, that's a moat that AI can't cross.

[00:47:17] That is a moat. Yes, I love it. Alright, Gary, final words of wisdom.

[00:47:22] Amplify your differentiation. meaning that, you really find the true ways to speak about differentiation and be paranoid about going out there and amplifying and making sure it's everywhere and your target market truly knows why and how you differentiate and why it matters to them.

[00:47:42] Love it.

[00:47:42] Alright, well thank you all. Scott, Gary, Leslie, you're all great sports. Thank you audience for staying with us.

Show Credits

Renegade Marketers Unite is written and directed by Drew Neisser. Hey, that's me! This show is produced by Melissa Caffrey, Laura Parkyn, and Ishar Cuevas. The music is by the amazing Burns Twins and the intro Voice Over is Linda Cornelius. To find the transcripts of all episodes, suggest future guests, or learn more about B2B branding, CMO Huddles, or my CMO coaching service, check out renegade.com. I'm your host, Drew Neisser. And until next time, keep those Renegade thinking caps on and strong!