Humor as a Leadership Tool

Drew: Hello, Renegade Marketer! If this is your first time listening, welcome. If you're a regular listener, welcome back.

You're about to listen to an expert huddle where experts share their insights into the topics of critical importance to our flocking awesome CMO Huddles community. In this episode, Jan McInnis looks at how a little humor can go a long way at work. Drawing on her years in stand-up and on the keynote circuit, she shares how levity can help make leaders more human, more approachable, and easier to connect with, along with a few practical ways to build that muscle. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. You'll be supporting our quest to be the number one B2B marketing podcast. All right, let's dive in.

Narrator: Welcome to Renegade Marketers Unite, possibly the best weekly podcast for CMOs and everyone else looking for innovative ways to transform their brand, drive demand, and just plain cut through, proving that B2B does not mean boring to business. Here's your host and Chief Marketing Renegade, Drew Neisser.

Drew: Hello, Huddlers, welcome to today's expert huddle. Most of you know our mascot is a penguin — not because penguins are flashy, but because they survive tough conditions by huddling together. And that feels like a pretty good metaphor for being a CMO, particularly a B2B CMO, right now. Somewhere along the way, though, we collectively lost our sense of humor, and I'm including myself in this group. So today we're here to challenge that, and our topic is: Lighten Up — Why Humor Could Be Your Secret Weapon. Joining us is Jan McInnis, aka The Work Lady. By the way, we've got to get into what that means. Jan is a former stand-up comedian turned keynote speaker who helps leaders use humor effectively without trying to be comedians, without offending HR, and without turning staff meetings into open mic night — although that sounds fun. Jan, welcome. How are you and where are you this fine day?

Jan: Thank you. Good to be on here. I'm in lovely Pasadena.

Drew: I love it. Yes, it is indeed lovely and can be very nice this time of year. All right, we've got to get to The Work Lady. How does a comedian end up with The Work Lady?

Jan: Because people can't spell my last name, McInnis — they keep putting a G in it. When I worked comedy clubs, I used to do a lot of work humor and office humor, so I just thought, let's go with it. We got the Church Lady with SNL, so let's do The Work Lady with Jan McInnis.

Drew: I love it. That absolutely explains it. And yes, I did misspell your name at one point when I was searching for you — I realized there's no G in it.

Jan:  I like Guinness beer, but it's not my name.

Drew: All right, so one of the things we do here in our expert huddles is challenge our guests, because in some cases folks need to leave early, and we want to give them a reason to stay. What are three things leaders most commonly misunderstand about using humor at work? If you can list the three, we can then go through them one by one.

Jan: It's got to be jokes and comedy-club funny. No, you're not trying to be a comedian. Two — that they'll bomb. They're always worried about, "Oh, it's not going to work." Don't worry about that. And three — that you have to have a funny bone. You're waiting for permission. Don't wait for permission.

Drew: Okay. So let's talk about the first one: jokes. We're talking about humor in the workplace, so where does not telling jokes fit into being humorous?

Jan: What you're trying to do in the workplace is so different from a comedy club. You're trying to pull out the humor around you — to kick off a stressful conversation, or maybe connect with a client or something. You're not trying to be joke-joke-joke. Nobody likes that. People don't even like that when comedians are offstage — they don't like it if we're always "on." So it's not about writing a joke; it's about just pulling out humor. You're not trying to make everyone fall out of their seats laughing. You want to just use a little bit of light humor, let everyone know you're approachable — like, "Hey, they do have a sense of humor." There are a lot of good benefits to using it, but people always think they have to be a comedian, and no.

Drew: And part of the reason they're not using humor, as you pointed out with the second one, is they're afraid they're going to bomb. There's a fear of it, and I suspect fear on multiple levels — that they'll be insensitive, that they won't be taken seriously. Talk about getting over the fear of failure when it comes to using humor.

Jan: Sure. First of all do the humor you think is funny, you'll sell it, you'll enjoy it. Don't focus so much on bombing. I don't know if you ride motorcycles — I ride a motorcycle — but wherever you focus is where you're going to go. If you're staring at the pavement, you're going to hit the ground, right? So don't focus on, "Oh my gosh, I hope they like this." Really, you're just trying to share the humor you see in the situation. Most people in business are happy that you're trying. They're not going to get mad if it's not killer funny or whatever — they appreciate that you're trying to lighten the situation. So don't focus on the bombing part. Focus on having fun and pulling out what you think is truly funny.

Drew: It’s funny that I find personally that in an interview I'll be so focused on really listening and paying attention that I'll just miss the humor. There was a funny thing, and then 30 seconds later I'll think, "Oh, that should have been a moment where we had a little laugh."

Jan: Yeah, because humor is all around us — we're not paying attention. It is a muscle you want to practice. I can certainly give you some ways and things to look at, but yeah, we miss it so much because we're focusing on the wrong thing. And if you start to focus on, "Oh gosh, I hope they're going to love this...

Drew: And the third one was the funny bone: that you have to have one or you don't, and it's something you just inherited. I find myself saying "it's funny" — I have a family history of punning. My grandfather, my uncle, my father, my brothers — and puns, even though they're the lowest form of humor, always get a little groan and can lighten things up. So I came from a long line of punsters. At one point in my life I thought my final career would be stand-up. But there are those who were never around humor — it wasn't a fun household to grow up in — and they don't necessarily have an instinct for funny. So I think this would be a good place to get to working that muscle.

Jan: Yeah, it is a muscle. Start looking around — it's all around you. We're just not paying attention to it. People are kind of waiting for permission, waiting for someone to say, "Yes, you can be funny." I didn't come from a family that was funny in an entertainment sense — we had our family inside jokes and things like that, but I didn't have an entertainment family. I just thought, "I want to do this. Let's try this." It's a muscle. You've got to practice it. Start looking around. Comedians have just been doing this so long we know where to look, we know what to have fun with, we know where the humor is, and we are always paying attention. So just start looking around at your surroundings and there's humor. 

Drew: This is a complete sidebar, but a lot of comedians had actually very difficult childhoods. Humor was a way of surviving — both being the prankster kid in class, getting attention that way, and frankly just surviving a very tough home environment. It's sort of interesting.

Jan: Yeah. When I first started comedy, a friend of mine watched a comedian on stage — she knew him from high school — and she said everything he was talking about, she knew it was real. A lot of truth is said in jest. People connect with the audience, connect with other people, when you talk about the stuff you've really experienced and you can make it funny. That's how people go, "Oh yeah, that happened to me too." I joke about things like my big feet — I'm a size 12, which is very hard to find in a women's shoe. Size 12 triple-A growing up was awful. That's one of the bits people come up afterward and say, "Oh my gosh, I have the same problem! Where do you shop?" Just funny things like that. It's a great way to connect. And even if you didn't have that shared background, you still laugh because you're kind of happy it didn't happen to you.

Drew: I have to share this: when I was 18, I was five foot six and had size 13 shoes, so I figured if I didn't grow I could join the circus.

Jan: And the puns would work great in the circus there, Drew.

Drew: Yeah, well, maybe, maybe not. There's a certain self-deprecation that feels like a very safe area — to make fun of oneself or tell stories about oneself.

Jan: Yeah. People always like rules. If you're in a comedy club doing comedy, the big one rule is: be funny. You can be insulting, you can be whatever you want to be, but they paid you to be funny. But in business, you really want to pay attention to a few rules. Things like: don't make fun of a group that you're not a member of. If you're bald, you can have fun with bald. If you have big feet, you can have fun with big feet. If you're not, just stay away from it. Don't go for the low, mean joke. In a comedy club, sure, you can do that, but in a corporate setting you don't want to. I always do a conference call with clients ahead of time, and they give me ideas, and they'll say things like, "Oh yeah, make fun of her hair. Make fun of his divorce." And I'm like, "No, we're not going to do that" — because they don't get that you don't just go after whatever is funny. I did a show for 500 blind merchants. I was the only sighted person in the room. They had a great sense of humor, but they put in my contract: no blind jokes. They've heard them all. As a comedian, you might want to get on stage and say something like, "Hey, I'm naked" — don't, because they've heard it. They had a great sense of humor. I did an event for a group of 4,400 people. They ran out of dinner for 1,500 people, and it was plated — it was their employee appreciation banquet. I could have gone out there with the low-hanging fruit, pulled the curtain back and gone for the cheap joke. I joked around, but people were upset — that would have been mean. There was a meeting planner backstage crying. So you've got to be sensitive to that when you're doing humor in business. Take a breath and think about it: Is this going to hurt somebody? Am I part of that group? Is this something I can have some fun with? If not, don't.

Drew: When you mentioned the one where you were talking to the site list — the good news is they made sure that you didn't go into that event blind. I think, yeah. And I don't know, that was a fine line. I may or may not have been able to do that, because I'm not in that group.

Jan: Right, they've heard it, you know. Like, you think I did the show for the postmasters in the country — my friends were always like, "Oh yeah, going postal." No. They lived through all that stuff, you know. That's not funny to them. So you kind of — and in the office, you know, I always say use your common sense: sex, drugs, rock and roll, stay away from — probably politics, you know. Use your common sense when you're using humor.

Drew: It occurs to me that before we go into some more exercises that folks can do in building this muscle, we should probably defend the notion of humor in the workplace a little bit more. Why do you think it is so important for leaders to find humor in situations and to deploy humor? Maybe you could share some insights.

Jan: Sure. Great way to, first of all, make yourself look human to your staff and co-workers and clients and that sort of thing. I've had several CEOs say thank you for joking around with me, or our policies, or this and that, because it lets everyone know they all have a sense of humor. So it really is a nice way to let people know you are approachable. You know, you want to be approachable. Don't you feel like you can approach somebody who's been joking around a little bit and let people know there's sort of a human side to you? And I'm not talking about making yourself be so self-deprecating you look ridiculous. You're not trying to bring yourself down. You just want to make a connection. Don't you get that aha moment with someone — when they both get your humor — you can cut out a lot of small talk by making a quick connection. Also, okay, say you sit down to a staff meeting and you just had some big issue happen, but you don't really want to go into it in depth in the staff meeting, right? You just want to get through whatever your agenda is. If you don't address it, people are going to think you don't know what's going on in the company. You know, they stop the free coffee, and if you do address it, you might end up with a two-hour staff meeting that you didn't prepare for. But if you can just use a little bit of humor, it lets people know, "Hey, I know what's going on," and then it kind of clears the air a little bit, breaks tension, and lets people know, hey, I know what's going on. And I'm not talking about making fun of it, but just kind of touching on it. I've had to do that in several instances. When I get on — I look at it as like I'm getting on stage and something weird has happened ahead of me. I've gotten on stage after the group was almost all laid off. I've gotten on stage, you know, at the last minute — the business they were selling fell through, and so everybody was happy. But you know, I've gone on stage after they've been shaking them down for more money, and I've got to go, and there's bad energy out there, and I can't just go right into my act. I've gone on stage where the CEO has delivered a very boring speech — it's hard, I can't just walk into my act. So you use a few techniques to just jump on and clear the air. One quick acknowledgement that's funny, and it's just — it's amazing. It changes the energy. And people are like, okay, she or he knows what we're dealing with — they just cut the coffee in the break room or something, you know.

Drew: And I think that's so important. So there's a certain sensitivity — you don't want to seem, in all the use of humor, insensitive. I think when you were talking about the use of humor, it really came down to this: one of the things humor can do is make you more likable, more human, more approachable. And I think this is where this conflict lies, because in some cases there's this notion, "Well, I don't care if they like me, I want them to respect me first," and those are not at odds. But I want to talk about that, because that could be a constraint from using humor.

Jan: Sure, and if you just want people to follow your rule of law and that's it and you don't use humor — humor is a nice way to kind of let people know, to give people some advice, some stuff that's going on in the office, or make some new rule a little easier. It is a nice way to make you a little more human. And again, we're not talking about jokes, just that little bit of humor here and there. We're not talking about coming out and doing a stand-up routine, like you mentioned at the open mic at the office. But certainly, again, you're not trying to be so self-deprecating that you make yourself look like an idiot to your staff. You're not trying to do that. And you're not trying to be buddy-buddy with the staff — you're just trying to, hey, here's some information. And sometimes it's not appropriate, but sometimes I think what I'm trying to get people to do is to not miss the easy stuff in the office, where you can have some fun and you can bring it out. It's not all the time. It's not every subject. It's not every day. But if you start looking around now and start thinking, okay, how can we break this news differently? How can I say this a little differently? What can I say that will make people take it a little easier? That's what you kind of want to use humor with.

Drew: So Jan, I'm really not worried about humor making me seem like an idiot in the workplace — I thought there were so many other ways that will happen. But yeah, so I'm going to just wrap up this notion: as a leader, you're building a culture. Ideally, if you can make the workplace a little bit more fun, or if it's serious and you're doing serious things, still lightening things up — likely, although these are intangibles — will increase employee satisfaction, will increase the likelihood that they'll work harder with you and for you, and they'll feel more of a human connection. I think all of those things are true when there is a little bit of lightness and levity in the room almost all the time.

Jan: You know, I've presented keynotes on using humor to every kind of industry. I mean, healthcare — they deal with some serious stuff. They use humor. Education, finance — I mean, done. You know, they laugh differently, by the way. They sit and analyze your joke first, and then, "Oh yeah, that's good."

Drew: They take stock, I think, is really what they're doing.

Jan: Right. And they kind of decide if it's funny or not. But you know, I'm just saying don't miss the easy stuff. This is another tool in your toolbox as a leader. And so many people think, "Oh gosh, I didn't grow up in a funny family. I don't have a funny — no one's told me I'm funny. No one's given me permission." And they miss such an easy mark, an easy thing to connect. And like you said, the culture — people want to work where it's a little bit fun, a little bit more interesting, and you can do that by using a little bit of humor. And maybe you're not going to tell jokes, but maybe — I don't know — funny cartoons, or funny things you see, that will let people know, as you send out your email on something funny: "Hey, I saw this — we're in finance — I saw this about finance today," or a funny thing. Just to let people know you have a sense of humor. It doesn't have to be every time you give a speech where you try and find something funny, you know.

Drew: Okay, well, let's hammer home this toolbox idea. I want to get better at using humor in the workplace. I want to build this muscle. What are some things that a leader — a very serious business leader who may or may not be hitting their numbers, with tremendous pressure all the time to perform and get the team to perform, to show efficiency, to show that they're leading using the technology — all this stuff that lacks humor for the most part — what are some exercises, some training, some ways that they can build this? I mean, literally, I have to put a Post-it note on my screen to remind myself to just lighten up.

Jan: Yeah, well, I would say first of all, lists. I'm big on making a list, you know — a list of what you see in the room and pulling out the ironies. What are the disconnects? What are the things that don't make sense? You know, I do that when I walk into any environment. I look around and I'm like, okay, what's the temperature, what's the ceiling, what's the audience makeup? And you kind of make a list and pull out — what are the disconnects? You know, I did an event one time and the agenda — the speaker ahead of me was speaking on networking and his talk was titled "Never Eat Lunch Alone." Right after him on the agenda: "Lunch on Your Own." I mean, things like that you could pull out and have some fun with, you know. So start looking around and really noticing your environment. And if you want to pull out the humor, an easy way — another way — is joke formulas, you know: good news, bad news. All the things we hate about this, all the things we love about this. That's an easy, easy way. Or a top list: "Top Things We Hate About This Stuff." And you can bring out what people are thinking, for sure, just using a few joke formulas. And you don't have to say it in a joke formula, but if you make your list — make good news about this, bad news about this — it'll come together. And get outrageous. You know, if you listen to any comedian, we talk in extremes. So someone isn't 100 years old, they're 1,000 years old. They don't weigh 100 pounds, they weigh 10,000 pounds. We look at everything like it's a problem, and we ask the question, you know: "How would I solve this if I could solve this any way I want?" We come up with extreme solutions to whatever the issue is. So have some fun. Make it extreme. Use some joke-formula-type things, and you can do it on your own just as an exercise — "Hey, no more free coffee in the break room. What's good about this? What's bad about this?" — and have some fun with that to get yourself in the mood, in the mindset of finding the humor.

Drew: I think one of the keys here is you have to be looking for the humor. If you're not looking for it, you're not going to see it.

Jan: You're going to step right over it, and you're going to miss a really great opportunity to at least get people smiling. It's a drug, too, man, I'll tell you — when you get people laughing, or just get people smiling, or they connect with you like the "ah, I got it" — it's really fun. I mean, it's really — you'll get addicted to it and you'll want to do more. And I always say, tell people, start small. Comedians, we start with maybe three minutes at an open mic, because you don't want to see somebody who's never done it do 60 minutes. So start small. Just start finding, start looking around, pull one little thing out. And as you get some nice feedback, you start enjoying it yourself. Sometimes just doing it for yourself, you'll want to do some more, and you'll start looking, and after a while it'll kind of keep popping out at you.

Drew: Would a CMO, or a leader, share this and say, "You know, I think we need to lighten things up a bit"? I mean, would they actually do that, or is that too much — are you showing your strategy?

Jan: It's like being on a radio show and someone saying, "Okay, so tell me a joke." How about you just ask me about kids, and I'll go into my bit. And I've had that, so yeah — don't go out there saying "I'm going to be funny and you're going to like it," because then you really set yourself up. You know, if you just go out and start kind of bringing out where you see humor, and the humor you really think is funny — some people like puns, some people like knock-knock jokes — if you think it's funny, you'll sell it. You'll enjoy saying it. It won't be any pressure on you. Because you're just telling people, showing people, "Hey, I think this is funny," or "I think this is ironic." You know, how many memos do we get saying we're going to go paperless? We got those written memos back when we were doing written memos, and we used to laugh going, "Well, I think we could have saved something on that."

Drew: Yeah, use less paper, right? Get it. There's also something about the era that we're moving into — using AI for everything — where as leaders, showing your humanity more and connecting on a humorous level is probably more important.

Jan: Yes. Okay, first of all, AI can't do jokes. I tried. They can't do very good jokes. But don't let — you know, AI can't do the human side of it. I was just talking to someone — I joined a gym, and the trainer stood me up three different times, and I finally went to AI and put in my training and found a great training program to do with the gym. And I thought, you know, here's this trainer who could lose his job to AI if he's not careful, because he's not bringing the human side of it. I would prefer to have a human, but he forced me to finally go and put together my own program through AI. So don't let it slip away. Don't let people start using AI and missing that human component.

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Drew: So I'm imagining — again — there's this meeting with the board, and the board wants to grill the leader about why the numbers, the pipeline numbers, are not exactly what they had hoped for. It's a very serious, intense moment. Is there an opportunity for humor, and if so, where?

Jan: You really have to know — first of all, don't use it if the place is hostile. You're just trying to relieve a little tension. If everyone's hostile and really hostile, you really have to get a feel for it. If it's going to be a tense or angry situation, use your common sense. Don't do it at all. If you're really angry about something, don't walk in and force it, because it's very hard to be funny when you're angry about it. That's one of those use-your-common-sense moments. I mean, if it's going to be super serious and that's not you — and they don't know you as someone who — like, I've done it when I had my day job in marketing. I used humor when we had some serious stuff, because that kind of was my personality.

Drew: Right. And they knew that was you, and so they expected it.

Jan: Yeah, yeah. But if it's going to be — if you're going to be grilled and you think it's going to be bad — no. You can certainly use some later, maybe more subtle stuff. But it's really a case by case. I can't say blanketly, "Hey, go in and start — well, these numbers stink, but guess what, I'll give you the good news is, the bad news is," you know, that kind of thing.

Drew: I'm looking for a new job. 

Jan: The good news is, it's not my problem anymore.

Drew: Yes, exactly. That sounds great. I was thinking as you were talking about — if you're angry, what an opportunity at that moment. This is where you're looking for the humor. Have that little tag on your computer screen, because that's probably the thing that will save you from yourself. If you can find the humor when you're angry, it's very difficult to do.

Jan: That's where AI comes in, because you put your really angry email into it and say, "Lighten this up,"  before I send it and torch a bridge.

Drew: Or that's where a good AI humorist would really help — like the computer. Just say, "You know what, I'm really pissed off about this. Could you make me laugh?" And then, yeah, good luck. But no — I think they should just call you, Jan, at that moment. You can be their comedy therapist. So, okay, we've got — I like these formulas: the good news/bad news, the top 10, the extremes, looking for the humor. I wonder if there are some more formulas that we should cover?

Jan: Well, I'll tell you one technique comedians use: when something's happened on stage ahead of us and we can't just go right into our act, we use the survey. I'll do like a quick survey. I did that at an event where people paid a lot of money — it was a fundraiser, and they paid a lot of money to be there. It was at a hospice, and a nun went out ahead of me and started sort of pressing them all for more money. She was saying, "Hey, we're halfway through building the new wing on the hospice, and we are $5 million short. Basically, pony up." It was very tense. And then they pushed me out there. I can't go right in, you know. So I just did a quick survey. And it's a nice technique you can use at a staff meeting sometimes. "Hey, quick survey — Sister Theresa just said we're halfway through building the new wing on the hospice and we are $5 million short. Quick survey: how many people think we should not tell that to the construction crew?" Quick release of tension, you know. Wasn't making fun of it, right? Addressing it. The survey is a really good one if you just want to acknowledge something. I mentioned the CEO right after the Super Bowl — it was a motivational thing. And I had license to have fun with the CEO, but he was trying to do some motivational thing and it wasn't going well. He was trying to do a whole analogy — this was years ago — between life and the Super Bowl, and it was not going well. He was kind of putting a bad energy around everything. So he ran off stage after about 10 minutes and pushed me out there. Of course, I can't go right into my act. So I just did the survey. "Hey, quick survey: how many people hope that next year during the Super Bowl, Bill does like the rest of us and just drinks a beer?" Got a great laugh. I had license to have fun with him, but it's a nice way to kind of transition. I don't have to say anything else and I can move on. So the survey method is certainly a nice thing to clear the air a little bit.

Drew: I'm thinking — just thinking of scenarios. And here are some interesting things that are happening right now. CMOs — we were talking about this in Huddles — they've gotten a lot of input and feedback in writing and in person with their CEO. And they actually can create a sort of avatar of the CEO that they can then ask and query and create slides for that are in their personality, and really manage up well as a result of using AI. What they're not also doing at that moment — they're solving the problem, but they're not necessarily lightening things up at any point in time. And I'm just wondering — you said earlier that AI can't write humor, but I do think that it can help you, if your tone — if you've established a tone that has lightened up.

Jan: Yeah, well, solving the problem — I mean, you could ask — that just made me think, because I did use it for an event recently. I was coming up with some funny ideas for solving this problem and I threw it into AI. It wasn't great, but it gave me some stuff to build on, right? So the ideas — and I'm saying it can't do humor; it does, it's just not really what I've seen — it hasn't been really great. But it has been good at — I said, "Hey, here's the scenario. Give me 10 solutions, or 20 solutions, that are kind of outrageous and funny." And it came up with some stuff that I built on. I didn't use it verbatim from the chat. I mean, 

Drew: I think about like, the old thing about when you're giving a speech, you imagine that the audience is naked, and that should help you — that actually never worked for me. I like the nervous energy. And singers do their la la la la la — they have their whole warm-up exercises. Are there warm-up exercises that comedians do? And is there anything that we could offer — again, these folks are not doing stand-up — but just to sort of remind themselves.

Jan: Well, I like — it's not nervous energy, but it's kind of excited energy, I think, right? What I do — so many times we're so focused on what we're going to say or our speech that we're not paying attention to the other speeches. So I like to watch the people ahead of me, the speakers ahead of me, and just envision: what would I say? How would I add something funny in there? How would I add something funny in there? And you might find something to play off of when you walk up there. If they've been talking about one thing, you might be able to say, "Well, I was just—" you know, and make something funny about that. So I think listening — not just staying in your own head — is a great way to warm up and to get yourself thinking funnier. You know, how would I fix their speech? How would I add to that?

Drew: Again, I think it's such a smart strategy in general, because one of the things is — as a marketing leader, the leader is trying to be a leader first, a marketing person second, a business person first. And if, let's say, the CFO presented the data on something or other and it was a little dry, but you could find a little bit of humor — you're showing that you were paying attention, you're connecting dots, and yet you are also lightening up the room. It feels like a win-win if you do it right.

Jan: I was just going to say — when you said data — we're thinking on the same page — facts and figures and data are great because you can flip them around. You know, "Our survey says 42% of people like the color blue" — well, what do the other 58% like? I mean, you can flip the data. You can always come up with funny or complementary facts or figures or something like that really quickly. If you've been doing it — I always, before I'm trying to find humor for a group, look on their website. They always have information about the city, or the data and the facts and figures. And those are so fun to make outrageous or different or to find something funny about, and then move on. You know, so data is great. Paying attention to what the other people are saying and coming up with just one quick little thing will connect. I do that when I'm emceeing for a company — I listen to what they're saying and what the reports are, and then I can come up with something. "Hey, you know, they just said that, but here's what they really didn't realize." 

Drew: Does it help to watch comedians perform for non-comedians? I mean, I'm just thinking — my wife and I love to watch various comedians, and they all have slightly — but like Seinfeld. Seinfeld is a classic at sort of observing the little minutiae of life, right? And once you sort of know Seinfeld, you see Seinfeld things all the time. Seinfeld humor all the time. And similarly, if you're a Mulaney fan, you can see that moment coming. Is there value for folks — besides the fact that it's funny and it will lighten up your life a little bit?

Jan: Sure. Obviously don't take any jokes without giving credit to them — but you can see how they're thinking, what their thought processes are, and see the different kinds of — you know, the setup/punch humor, which is what I do, versus stories versus — and what do you think resonates with you when you want to use some humor? Or, "Oh, how did that comedian talk? Look how they talk about that, and they drill down on the subject." You know, they didn't just hit — "you know, my family has had a crazy Thanksgiving" — but they kind of drilled down on why. And they ask a lot of questions. And that's what I would say with your group too — if you want to practice that humor muscle, ask questions. Look around you. Why did that happen? Who did that happen to? How many people could that affect? Who, what, when, where, why? That's what we always come up with. Why are they doing it this way? Who is involved? Who else does this affect? Have that list of questions and just — then get outrageous with that list of questions. Why did they do this instead of that? Why did — you know — and you can really come up with some great humor, some easy humor, just by asking questions. Run it through some questions.

Drew: And like so many skills, this is a skill that you have to start. You have to sort of put yourself out there at first. So again, you can practice with a small group before you open up at Radio City.

Jan: When I started comedy, I decided — don't ever do this — I would be around my friends and I would just throw out a few ideas for jokes, and if they didn't get a laugh, that would make me scared, so I wouldn't use it. So don't try to always be that person throwing out jokes. But yeah, start small. Like I said, just start with something. Find something. The next time you're going to send out a funny memo, you can be outrageous in the subject line. You know, use one of those idioms — "A penny saved is a penny earned" — or, "A penny saved is a penny that had better be on your expense account." And there are subject lines that can grab people's attention and get them to want to read more. So start it — start out small. Pick something you want to have fun with. One thing. Just try it. One irony. One top list — doesn't even have to be a top 10. Just a top list of, you know, things we can drink besides coffee now that they don't have coffee. You know, things like that.

Drew: And you know, it's interesting, because we are as marketers in the business of communication. And some are creating advertisements. And you know, in B2B, there's such a lack of humor in the advertising that when one actually is funny and uses it, it stands out like crazy. But there's a reminder — the most memorable Super Bowl ads are typically either really heartwarming, like the Budweiser horse and eagle thing — really — or they're just funny. I mean, the Hellmann's ad just cracked me up on so many different levels. There was so much humor built into it. And there's a reminder that we know inherently that humor makes you more memorable. It opens up the door. It makes people pay attention. But I think the biggest thing of all of this is you have to remind yourself that it matters in the workplace too. It does. You could absolutely go a whole month of communication with your team internally and not use humor once.

Jan: Yeah and you forget.

Drew: And you forget. And by the way, if you forget to do it, your team is going to forget to do it. So everybody's going to be heads down, and it's going to be more dreary.

Jan: Think of your team — if you had some funny fact in an email, I mean, we use this method when we're emceeing: one funny thing and people want to open the next email. Because you were funny, though it was a little bit interesting, or you had a funny statistic or something — some statistics that are real are funny. You can use real, funny stuff. They might want to read the next one you send out. You know, in a William & Mary context, we might start out with talking about our cat. Well, next time I come up, they want to hear about the cat again. You know, they want to hear more.

Drew: I realized I need to challenge myself more. We do a lot of communications with Huddle's community, a weekly recap, and I have not had very many funny, humorous subject lines. So better lead by example here, yeah. So we'll work on that a little bit as a way of reminding folks.

Jan: Take those idioms like, "a penny saved, a penny earned." Take some of those and just change them around. Fast, easy humor. Acronyms. I mean, every business has acronyms. Nobody speaks an entire sentence anymore. Change a few definitions. Have some fun with that. People will get it, you know, and laugh. RFP — really frustrating paperwork, you know, we all have to deal with that. So you just change a few things around and it gives people a chuckle again. You're not trying to be belly-laugh, killer funny. You're not trying to be joke, joke, joke and be a comedian — just start small. Do a little bit. Have some fun with it.

Drew: Well, on the laugh meter of zero to funny, if you can get to five, you're fine. A chuckle is just fine, because right now we're mostly at ones and twos on that laugh meter — we're not moving that needle at all.

Jan: You want to be memorable. I mean, the Super Bowl ads — what were they? Eight to ten million dollars for 30 seconds. You can do it much cheaper than that, and some of them were not funny and tried to be, you know — it's okay. Sometimes you remember those too, but it does make it personal. Clients, potential clients, co-workers, staff — everyone appreciates some humor. I would think most people appreciate some humor.

Drew: I just want to remind the live audience that if any of you have any questions, please put them in chat. Or if you really want to come on camera, just be ready — raise your hand and we'll bring you on stage here. But bring your humor, your funny one with you. Yes, exactly. So you're coaching, and whether it's live or when this goes out as a podcast or a room full of CMOs — we're doing this for the next 90 days. What consistent habits would you want them to build so that humor becomes intentional rather than accidental?

Jan: Lists. Walk in and make a quick list of what do you see around the room — what looks different, funny? Just start making lists and being intentional about looking for ways to do it. Like I said, idioms, good news, bad news. Just listen — really listen to what other people are saying. If someone's speaking ahead of you, what can you play off of? What piece of that? But I would say, pick one thing. Just — okay, I'm going to make a list of everything I see when I walk into this conference hall. I'm going to write down the centerpieces and the people walking around, and the colors on the table — just everything. And soon stuff just starts popping out. Look at the agenda. Look at the giveaway. I mean, I was at a conference and they were giving away solar-powered flashlights. I'm like, really? This works well in the sun, yeah — people don't think of that stuff. I got a grooming kit one time. They're giving out grooming kits. We all kind of think we look good when we show up at a conference. I'm like, was I the only person who was handed a grooming kit when I showed up? So, things like that — we aren't paying attention. Ask questions. Look around. Ask questions about your environment. Make lists. Ask questions.

Drew: The paying attention part is so key, because the minute you are, you will see it — yeah, or the minute you practice it. So step one is open up to the opportunity, right? Open up to the value of humor in the workplace. Look for humor. You talked a lot about sharing other things that you see as funny, and it's funny — my wife probably sends me two different funny Instagram things a day, and she'll say these are funny. You've got to look, and they're usually animals doing stupid things or babies doing stupid things. There's got to be some work equivalents of that, the Instagram sharing that you could do, right? That's what you were talking about earlier. 

Jan: And you can always have fun with the competition. You know, what are they doing differently than you? I did a show for John Deere, the tractor company. That's a good name for a company, right — Deere. Sleek, fast, runs like a deer. I said, what do you think the guys at Caterpillar are thinking? You have some fun comparing the two, you know — competition, things like that. You can have fun.

Drew: We do have a question about international, European sensibilities versus American sensibilities. You're going global, Jan. What do you need to be thinking about when you're in Hamburg?

Jan: Ooh, you need to know the culture for sure, because you can get yourself in some trouble for sure. I did an event one time where the CEO was from outside the US, and I was rocking the room with jokes about the company — not mean, just jokes — but he did not understand that that's what comedians do. He was glaring and looked ready to kill me. I got about five minutes into the jokes about the group, and I stopped doing those jokes and went into my act because it was very uncomfortable for me. But the place was rocking and they were having a great time — even the employees. They later said, "Wow, we did not realize he would not get that American companies can make fun." So make sure you know the culture. I would really be very careful and do very little until you know kind of where you can go with it.

Drew: And I would think you would really want to avoid wordplay, because unless you're going to try to make a pun in the language of the people you're speaking to, any sort of attempt at a pun will fall flat because they're thinking of words very literally.

Jan: Right. And puns and wordplay — they're not even using the same words. Like stone, you know — weight in pounds versus stones in England — and the joke just does not translate.

Drew: Yes, yes. That's a weighty observation, so I appreciate that.

Jan: Also, be very careful when you go to other countries. Like, I did something in Canada, and they were like, "Don't make fun of the fact that we use kilometers, because every American comedian does that. It's not funny to us — it's kind of overdone." I mean, that's, again — don't do the tried-and-true, easy humor, because they said everyone that comes into Canada does that. A million kilometers versus 10 miles, you know — it was a bad joke. So watch out for trying to make fun of things that you think are instantly funny. They may have heard it and they don't get it, because it's just not funny to them.

Drew: Right. So I think you were really talking about knowing your audience here. And if you're in an international audience, you are going to be struggling because you can't make the same sort of assumption — oh, it's a bunch of Americans in the room, and therefore you have a sense that you're in a similar place, at least from a language standpoint. Okay, at the risk of being repetitive — what are three key takeaways you hope CMOs glean from today's conversation?

Jan: Please try — no, don't try, do it. Do one. Pick one thing. Second thing, start looking around for it. Listen to the person who's speaking ahead of you. Listen. Look at the environment. Really start paying attention. Number three, once again, I would just say please don't worry about bombing. Don't focus on it. Stay away from hot topics, and as long as you're not being derogatory to others — use your common sense when you're using it.

Drew: I love it. Okay, so we are going to put Post-it notes on our screens that say, "Look for humor." Look for that humorous moment, and particularly, practice with your teams first — not necessarily in a boardroom. Then you can sort of expand to partners, and you can sort of keep working — but there's a pot of gold at the end of this rainbow, which is better, stronger human connections with the people that you're working with. Jan, where can people find you, and how do they engage with you?

Jan: Great — because nobody can spell my last name — theworklady.com. Jan at theworklady.com. I would love to hear from people, and if you've got any questions, feel free to send them over. I'd love to help you out and encourage you in using more humor.

Drew: All right, theworklady.com — that's Jan. Thank you so much for reminding us that leadership doesn't require a poker face, at least not all the time. And Huddlers, thank you for huddling and perhaps loosening up together.

 

If you're a B2B CMO and you want to hear more conversations like this one, find out if you qualify to join our community of sharing, caring, and daring CMOs at cmohuddles.com.

Show Credits

Renegade Marketers Unite is written and directed by Drew Neisser. Hey, that's me! This show is produced by Melissa Caffrey, Laura Parkyn, and Ishar Cuevas. The music is by the amazing Burns Twins and the intro Voice Over is Linda Cornelius. To find the transcripts of all episodes, suggest future guests, or learn more about B2B branding, CMO Huddles, or my CMO coaching service, check out renegade.com. I'm your host, Drew Neisser. And until next time, keep those Renegade thinking caps on and strong!