August 8, 2019

How to Build a Marketing Plan from Scratch

Lorraine Barber-Miller, CMO of ADP, has a tough mission: make ADP a category of one. That means helping push her legacy brand past its perception of just being a payroll solution. And, though it’s a tough goal, ADP’s marketing machine has been firing on all cylinders and getting it done.

Lorraine and her team have been hard at work implementing the company’s first-ever marketing plan. They’ve crafted a new brand purpose to help differentiate in a crowded field, made a new character the hero of their story, and have invested in massive outdoor, digital, and print campaigns to bring their reinvigorated brand to the world. If you need to improve your brand presence and market reach, you may want to consider Mail Printing in addition to a powerful digital marketing strategy.

Tune in to hear how they told a story that no one else could, and how they made it real.

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Full Transcript: Drew Neisser in Conversations with Lorraine Barber-Miller 

Drew Neisser: We are live with another episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite. I’m excited about today’s conversation. I have worked on brands that are 100+ years old, 75 years old, and it’s very hard to move the needle. It’s very hard to change an organization. And it’s really hard to change perceptions. That’s what this conversation today is all about. My guest is Lorraine Barber-Miller, who is the CMO of ADP. My guess is that everyone here listening has heard of ADP. Before we get into that, you spent 21 years at IBM.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: That’s right.

Drew Neisser: Is this the second company you’ve worked at in your career?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: It is!

Drew Neisser: Oh my gosh! That puts you in a very rarefied air as far as CMOs go. Thinking back on your IBM experience for a moment, what are one or two things that you look back on and say, “I’m so proud that we were able to do this, this really cut through”?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: The most memorable part of my time with IBM was the time that I spent overseas. In 2008, IBM had decided to grow its growth market strategy and to geographically expand beyond the westernized cultures and countries. At the time, I moved to Dubai to lead marketing and communications for what was, at the time, the small and medium business segment of Central Eastern Europe and Middle East and Africa.

Drew Neisser: So I’m still trying to sort of—Dubai. It’s the Middle East. You’re a woman. What kind of adjustments did you have to make as a female executive in Dubai to succeed, if any?

Drew Neisser: Well, in fact, the culture in Dubai is very progressive. There were not many changes. Anytime you are entering a new landscape, you need to be respectful and honor the history and the culture, but at the same time, Dubai is very conducive, very welcoming to the Western world, and in fact very cosmopolitan.

Drew Neisser: Very diplomatic of you. I think your third job should be in the American diplomatic corps. When you got to Dubai, first of all, a lot of people probably would have said, “What are you doing?” You’re in the marketing department, this doesn’t feel like an elevation. It feels like you’re getting sent off somewhere as though they are saying,” I hope you come back. Good luck.” That took some courage.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: It did. Most of my coworkers at the time didn’t even know where I was going from a map perspective or geography perspective, let alone what I was going to do there. But, because I had always looked at my career as an opportunity to reinvent myself, I raised my hand and I wanted to work internationally. This was an incredible opportunity to be part of IBM’s growth strategy at the time, so I did it. I moved to Dubai to really bring that Smarter Planet agenda at the time, bringing that to life in over 100 countries across this geography. As I mentioned, we used to call Central and Eastern Europe, Middle East, and Africa.

Drew Neisser: Three continents that couldn’t be more different. 

Lorraine Barber-Miller: That’s right. They are very different from a cultural perspective, from a way of doing business, language. Really, so diverse, and yet very fragmented.

Drew Neisser: So you get to this place, you’ve got all these cultures, what happened other than just being there, what did you accomplish while you were there?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: We were successful in that we were able to establish the brand on the ground in many of these countries for the very first time. It’s a beautiful legacy to leave, right? We were establishing the brand to be consistent around the world. We were teaching the local teams the signature IBM way. It was fascinating to bring the brand to life, and yet, so many different cultures, ways of working, and every country had a different national agenda. We wanted to become that partner of choice and have a point of view, whether it was smarter cities or smarter water, smarter banking, or smarter health care for the citizens in those countries.

Drew Neisser: One of the things that is so interesting about IBM is that they understand brand. I worked with them five times in my career, years and years ago before starting Renegade, we were a guerrilla marketing agency for IBM several different times. It was fun. What was always struck me is that this is a company that understands brand.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Yes.

Drew Neisser: And big. Thinking big, acting big, and often doing things that one might argue were harder to measure from a clicks to the end sell through kind of measure, but on a brand level, IBM was far more top of mind than maybe their products or services warranted.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Well, it’s a company that has historically proven to reinvent itself very successfully for more than 100 years. It has a history of innovation. I think that was a place where I was taught to be bold and to be brave in my thinking. I’d like to believe that I’ve carried that with me throughout my career and also in my current role.

Drew Neisser: Ok, so big, bold move going overseas. You came back and you start at ADP. Let’s talk about that. First of all, it’s a big deal. You’ve worked at one company that’s done things pretty much the IBM way. IBM obviously evolved a lot over the 20 years you worked there, I saw it evolve tremendously. But still, it has a way of moving.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Yes.

Drew Neisser: Now you’re at ADP, which is also a huge company. Do you have around 100,000 employees? How big is it?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: 58,000.

Drew Neisser: 58,000. Relatively speaking, it’s small compared to IBM with 300,000-400,000 employees. How did you start?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: The way I started was respecting that history and that culture. ADP has enjoyed significant financial performance in terms of success, so many things were going very well. However, when I came into the role, I did my 100-day evaluation or assessment, and that informed the first ever marketing strategy for the company in its 70-year history.

Drew Neisser: Wait a second. First ever marketing plan? What were they doing? Was this a 100% sales driven organization for 70 plus years?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: For the most part, yes. Very sales driven. Very high performance. And yet marketing had not been a growth enabler until now.

Drew Neisser: Interesting. And what I see and what I suspect is, let’s face it—once you get in the door and you’re doing payroll? You just don’t switch.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: No. 

Drew Neisser: It’s like a bank. You really have something horrible happen for you to switch. That means once you have them, then it is land and expand.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: That’s right.

Drew Neisser: That’s the business model?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Right. It is very much around retention, around the stickiness of the business. Once you have a client for payroll, hopefully you can start to sell the rest of the portfolio. When I came in and did this evaluation of mine, I had spoken to our executive committee, to all the functional leaders in the business, my own staff, to clients, to prospects, and to external influencers, to really understand the landscape and to inform my point of view. One of the elements or conclusions that I drew was that the brand itself was not resonating any longer. 

Drew Neisser: Let’s stop there for a second. You did all this primarily qualitative research?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Correct.

Drew Neisser: And this is you and your team sort of investigating, here’s the culture, here are the values, here’s where we’ve been. You do this thing, and everybody’s heard of ADP, but you realized that something’s wrong. It’s not resonating, meaning what?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Meaning that it was resonating from the aspect of payroll only for the core business as you rightfully pointed out at the beginning, but not much more than that. In the meantime, the best kept secret is that ADP offers end-to-end solutions for human capital management, so a full portfolio. But our clients and our prospects primarily and by far knew us for payroll only. It was time to change that narrative and tell a story that had never been told.

Drew Neisser: I’m thinking that because there are a lot of Gustos coming up from in the small business side. You have lots of people looking at this legacy brand doing things that a legacy way, saying, “Wait, they’ve been doing it this way.” It’s like taxis and Uber. So, Gusto comes along and then there’s a lot of others. Then you’ve got all these other folks picking at the edges with timesheet management and human resources stuff. You’re locked in here, enviably, but they don’t know you for anything else.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: That’s right. It’s a very crowded marketplace, highly profitable, high growth. It’s a very attractive marketplace to be part of. But yet, this is where it becomes very difficult to differentiate because there’s a lot of noise. Everyone is talking and everyone is using the same language. We found the opportunity here to differentiate and to transcend the industry.

Drew Neisser: We’re going to pause right there because transcending the industry is what we want to talk about. We’ll be right back, stay with us.


Drew Neisser: Ok, we’re back. Lorraine Barber-Miller, CMO of ADP, and I have been talking about the situation that you found solid brand, you are really good in payroll, lots of competitors are saying, “Hey, we’re cooler, we’re hipper, we’re smarter, we’re relevant.” These guys are not. They’re not relevant. Now what?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: This year we celebrate our 70th anniversary, and in the year leading up to our anniversary, we took the time to reflect and ask ourselves, what are we working for?  What is our purpose? We took all 58,000 associates along this journey with us. They helped us co-create and to mine for that truth about us. The underlying truth is that we are always designing for people. This became the basis for our campaign and for our new brand platform. We believe that work is about more than just getting paid. Yes, it’s a nod to our history and who we’ve been, but it’s more than that. We believe that because we have a strong understanding about the changing world of work, we also have a point of view that it’s about more than just getting paid. There is a reason why we all work. Hence the campaign. What are you #workingfor?

Drew Neisser: What’s interesting to me, when I was trying to wrap my mind around it is that if you’re trying to redefine your brand and your brand is initials, then if you assign new things to those initials, maybe people will think differently about you. That’s a pretty solid trigger right there. Think about us differently because it’s not Automated Data Processing, or whatever ADP used to stand for, it stands for something new now. 

Lorraine Barber-Miller: In fact, it still stands for Automatic Data Processing. We haven’t changed the name of the company.

Drew Neisser: I’m sure you haven’t, but you have changed what people might think that those initial stand for. That’s a pretty concerted effort.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: That’s right.

Drew Neisser: Always Designing for People, I thought about that language, and I said, “Okay, who’s the hero of that story?”

Lorraine Barber-Miller: It’s the actual worker. Anyone who works. The reason we ask the question, what are you working for? That’s really an opportunity to spark a global conversation with anyone who works. We all have a motivation. Whether it’s putting a child through college, whether it’s an early retirement, we all have an ambition and a reason as to why we work. We believe that what we do at ADP enables our clients to achieve what they’re working for and for their businesses to thrive.

Drew Neisser: ADP helps these companies who help their employees. In the end, the people here are who you’re designing for. That’s the platform. It’s a platform for the brand. Now, how did you know? Let’s just take that language—how did you know that was good language? How did you know that was right?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Always Designing for People?

Drew Neisser: Yes.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Before we launched, we conducted a number of focus groups and some research work to truly test, not only the platform but also the campaign as one full system. We conducted a number of focus groups both domestically in the U.S. as well as internationally with our target audiences, whether they be small business owners or enterprise CHROs, CIOs, CFOs. They all came back and resoundingly told us that it resonated and that they believed it. It was credible, and it was reflective of who ADP has always been and continues to be for them.

Drew Neisser: When you’re testing this, you already had not only the platform but the campaign? There weren’t alternatives to this that you looked at?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: We did test alternatives. In the end, we had a preference for the one that we had ultimately selected. We did test another campaign and platform. Through this research, clients and prospects validated the one that we were ultimately gravitating towards, but both were very strong. Before we went out to launch, because this is the first time we’ve ever done this in the history of the company, we wanted some validation from the market.

Drew Neisser: Sure, and that helped. What did they see? If you show someone a tagline, they don’t have the imagination necessarily to know how this is going to come to life. Even “just do it”, wouldn’t be “just do it” without the amazing videos that you initially saw when they launched that campaign. So, what did you show them?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: We shared with them our new manifesto, which has since been published in The Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Washington Post, as well as through digital display at the Oculus, and in San Francisco’s BART station. Of course, we have it online, and all of our associates have since taken this to heart. We read them the manifesto, and we asked them who they thought we were speaking of. We got a variety of answers, and then we revealed who we were. They said, “Yeah, I get it. That sounds right. That sounds like who they are and who they’re becoming.” So we tested the manifesto, and then we showed them the platform of Always Designing for People along with the campaign of what are you #workingfor. Then it all started to come together. Based on their input we fine-tuned it for the final version that made it to market. The one aspect that I’m especially proud of, and the focus groups told us the same, was that we’ve brought a campaign to life through the eyes of our clients. They are the center of this campaign. It’s not about us, not about our products, not about our services.

Drew Neisser: Wait, you’re not the hero of this story?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: We’re not the hero, we’re the enabler. Our first ever 360 campaign that we’ve placed in market and our first ever TV commercials are employees of our clients that talk about what they’re working for.

Drew Neisser: Interesting. So I wonder, when you have a new idea like this, a new positioning, and we’ll even call it a brand vision for the moment, you often walk this fine line between who you are and who you want to be. It can’t just be where you are today, because everybody knows you as payroll. You’re really saying, “No, we’re about a lot more.” In that process of saying we’re moving forward and we’re changing along with the industry, what kinds of things organizationally did you need to do to catch up with that vision, if anything?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Well, it’s a great question. So, in fact, I would say both externally and internally, we took some steps. Before we got to the internal aspects of taking our associates on this journey, we conducted quite a bit of external research with existing clients and prospects. We asked them about their current perception and then we asked them about what they want to see ADP evolve or transform into? Of course, we got quite a bit of feedback. At the end of the day, the underlying thread was that our clients want us to be successful. We have permission in the marketplace to extend beyond what they’ve historically known us to be because we built the trust and we’ve delivered the value, and essentially, they’ve entrusted their most valuable asset to us, their people, their talent. There is that extension or that permission to be more for them.

Drew Neisser: Interesting. There’s some inherent strength there. I remember years ago when Sony was actually an amazing brand, there was some research done that they could have been a car because the brand was so strong at the time that they could have extended that. That’s a good feeling, that your brand can extend. There’s an elasticity to it. That’s probably one of the advantages of initials that have long lost their meaning is that you can build and evolve the company. You got permission to do it, which is important. Now, let’s talk about, what did you do internally besides saying, “Hey, here’s our new campaign platform”? Did you do anything substantively different as an organization in order to live up to this promise? Did you need to make some changes?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Yes, on the flip side, the internal efforts. ADP has had numerous campaigns in the past. This time, I wanted to take a very deliberate, very intentional but yet different approach that had not been taken before, which is focusing on the internal aspects and the enablement of our associates. Previously, it had been a campaign and there was an external splash, I call it a veneer. I wanted something that was really meaningful and enduring and lasting for the company, especially as we were approaching our 70th anniversary. We took on a piece of work to extract our purpose for the brand. From there, we spent quite a few months before an external launch to take all 58,000 associates on the journey with us. Who are we? What do we stand for? How do we sound? How do we act? And really, it’s just about ingraining the purpose in our people and how they live it every single day in the work that they do.

Drew Neisser: How long did you spend doing that? You had the idea. You’ve done this. How long would you say, before you go public, and say, “Hey, we’re this new company and we’re doing all this cool stuff,” how long did you spend?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: From the time we launched internally to the time we launched externally, it was about six months.

Drew Neisser: Awesome. I love hearing that, and let me tell you why. The opposite of that is—and there have been a couple of guests that way and I called them on it—their answer to that question was, “Well, we had this new company, we had this new brand, we had all this stuff, but we didn’t have time. We really had to catch them up.” The problem with that is, as you know, your employees make promises real.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Yes. 

Drew Neisser: If they’re not up to speed, someone calls the call center and says, “Hey, I could use some help with this new area” and they go, “Oh, we don’t that, so leave us alone.” Your job is now reorienting everyone to do this.

All right. Perfect place to take a break. When we come back, we’ll talk about some of the external executions that you’ve done.


Drew Neisser: All right, we’re back. We’ve done a lot of research both with our customers and our employees. We’ve made sure that we have permission to make new claims to our customers. We now spent six months repurposing the organization. Now, it’s time to launch this thing. Something that one of our favorite clients once said is, “You only get one time to launch.” How did you bring this new idea to life?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: We decided that because of our ambition as a company—and frankly, our history has been around innovation. We invented the industry 70 years ago, but because we wanted to continue along the path of innovation and transform the company, we decided to show up in a very unexpected place. We launched our new brand at SXSW.

Drew Neisser: Unexpected.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Right? ADP probably had no business being there and we were not expected to be there. But we said, “If we are about innovation, if we are about technology and enabling our client’s businesses that way, we want to show up at the world’s innovation and technology stage.” We showed up in two very different ways. First of all, we sponsored the future workplace track. It was a sole sponsorship and there we had a lounge.

Drew Neisser: Do we need to start from the very top? Probably. Let’s talk about how you launched this program.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Yes. We decided to do this in a very unexpected way. In a place that we were not supposed to be or expected to be. We launched at SXSW. Because we are an innovation company, a technology company, because we’re transforming to enable our client’s businesses through this, we decided to show up at the world’s innovation stage. With that, we had two activations. The first being that we were the sole sponsors of the future workplace track. There we had a lounge called The Commons, designed by ADP. It was an opportunity for revelers to join us, to really meet our subject matter experts, hands on to data and analytics that we have, and to participate in fireside chats. That was in the business section.

Drew Neisser: What happened at these things that made you smile? ADP and SXSW are two dots that have not been connected before, nor would you in your mind. Those folks are thinking all cloud based, they’re the Gustos of the world, right? They’re the Ubers, not the traditional taxis. Being old isn’t good. Being old is old. So, what surprised you and how did The Commons play out? 

Lorraine Barber-Miller: What was interesting to watch or unfold that I had never seen before for the brand was that there was interaction down to the employee level. We had historically been a B2B company. As we transitioned to a B2B2C company, our company and our brand was now interacting down to the individual level, which was not an audience for us previously. Individuals were coming to the lounge, interacting with us, and hopefully, becoming influencers to their employers.

That is what happened in the business section of the festival. In the experiential section of the festival, we had a second activation called Breaking Barriers. It was very much linked to our brand. It was a smash room concept. We would suit you up, you’d go in, you’d select one of four workplace barriers to metaphorically break. That was a lot of fun.

Drew Neisser: Oh my gosh, I saw a video of that.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Yes. America is very stressed.

Drew Neisser: Yes. America is really stressed. I saw a young lady who was dressed in a hazmat suit breaking glass, breaking a glass ceiling.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: That’s right. The glass ceiling was very popular. We had pay inequality. We also had work-life balance and we had outdated work systems. 

Drew Neisser: Yes. I actually saw a video of a woman in a hazmat suit. She was completely covered, and she breaks this glass and it shatters all over her. It was a very cool video.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Yes. It was very therapeutic. It was one of four that revelers could select from. Obviously, the glass ceiling, pay inequality, work-life balance, and outdated work systems.

Drew Neisser: Outdated work systems! That gives you a chance to talk about product a little bit.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: That’s right. This was really an opportunity to interact with the general public so that they could perceive us in a very different way. In fact, one of the things that makes me smile is that we were called the dark horse of SXSW by AdWeek. We were also called one of the top five craziest activations there.

Drew Neisser: Love that.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Very unexpected place, very unexpected brand, yet we gained a lot of visibility and attention there. You just never know. That could go very well, it could also not go well for the first time.

Drew Neisser: Sure. So that’s your launch, and you’re launching to a relatively small, but elite group of people who are obviously influential in the tech space. Cool. Now what?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Over that weekend, the rest of the campaign started to roll out. Of course, I mentioned about our manifesto publicly published in the media. We also had an installation at New York City’s Oculus, as well as San Francisco’s BART station. From there, we continued to unfold with our first ever TV commercials featuring our clients with radio, print, digital. Really the full 360 approach. That continues in the market today and will continue to unfold in the upcoming months.

Drew Neisser: I love the fact that this is both offline and online because there’s so much pressure to spend all your money digitally. Particularly since you’re B2B2C, you have a broad audience.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Yes.

Drew Neisser: I mean, how many hundreds of thousands of people are actually on ADP payroll? 

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Well, we have over 740,000 clients around the world.

Drew Neisser: Clients?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Yes. And then the number of employees.

Drew Neisser: Right. So multiply that by 10 or 20 or 50. It’s a lot of people, so it’s pretty broad. If you’re trying to change perception, besides the fact that they get a paycheck from you twice a month or once a week, with advertising, there’ll be this moment where they’ll see an ad, and then they’ll get their paycheck and go, “Oh, oh, right” and they’ll start to connect it. You’ve been doing this now for 3+ months, what are the early indicators that things are going well?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: In addition to a significant amount of social media engagement with us, it has also been very well-received by the media and the press. It’s an incredible story to tell for what had been a legacy brand now transforming to be future-forward. It has also been very well-received by our clients and by our prospects. We have clients who are calling us and saying, “I heard your commercial,” or “I heard the radio ad, this is exactly who you are, I recognize that.”

Drew Neisser: That’s nice.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: We also have candidates who are now applying for roles at ADP, so from an employer brand perspective, there are individuals applying to roles who have said “This is the first time I’m applying to ADP and I’m doing that because I’ve seen your new advertising and I want to be part of what you stand for.” 

Drew Neisser: See, purpose-driven works. This is one of the challenges we were talking about before we started rolling the tape. A good rebranding, a purpose-driven brand, plays multiple roles with employees, customers, and prospects. With employees, it not only helps that they’re working for a company they believe in, but other people want to work there. Your yield is higher and your turnover, in theory, should be lower. But if you go to the CEO and say, “Hey, we want to measure this campaign based on recruiting retention,” they would say “what?” Because there’s so much attention on growth, yet what is one of the biggest barriers to growth? Not having a motivated workforce.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: That’s right.

Drew Neisser: This is the hard part of brand measurement. When you do change your brand, you do add that, how are you trying to measure those? We’ve got some anecdotal evidence that customers are happy, employees are happier, but how are you looking at this and in total bringing the metrics to the table that will pass in the C-suite?

Lorraine Barber-Miller: We could have simply updated our mission and our vision, but instead, we wanted to self reflect. We wanted to become that purpose-driven company that is very enduring, that is motivating to not only our own associates but to the world at large. When we set out to do the work, the brand will not just drive the growth of the business, but it becomes the lens by which we make every decision in the company. It is the lens by which we decide who to partner with, who to acquire, what to build on our own. You can’t say you stand for one thing and make decisions that reinforce another. You have to be authentic and deliver on that promise. While we are here today, we did throw that pebble out into the pond, and we are swimming towards it. It’s aspirational, but it is authentic and indicative of who we are. Again, the brand work becomes that lens by which we will make every decision in the company. It will ultimately influence or impact our awareness, our perception, and our consideration all the way to business growth. We set out those aspirations and those metrics from the start and we will be monitoring that on a regular basis to ensure that we’re moving the needle in the right direction. Early indicators do tell us that after two and a half, three months, that it has been well received, it is resonating, and we’re hitting the audience that we intended to target.

Drew Neisser: I suspect it will be two or three anecdotes of, “Hey, I saw your new campaign, so we decided to switch payroll companies.” That will be the thing that we really—even though all these other things are good. The other thing that will be interesting is that if your customers approach you and say, “Hey, I want to be in that ad, I want to be part of this.” Then you know you’re in a really good place because you’ve got this self-perpetuating thing where you’re making your customer a hero. You’re making them look good and they’re helping you. It’s a nice combination.

You’ve got a bunch of CMOs listening and you’ve gone through this lengthy exercise. Give us two dos and a don’t. Two things that you’ve learned along the way that could be instructive to other CMOs.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: You have to take your employees on the journey with you. They are ultimately the ambassadors of your brand. I really do believe that culture and brand are connected. I often say that character is behavior, and behavior is culture, and culture is brand. Hence, I wanted to spend so much time and focus on our associate base to help bring them along in this journey. Number one, internal is key to your success, it will make or break your external launch. Another do, be brave, be bold. I often say that my mission in this role is to make ADP a category of one.

Drew Neisser: A category of one.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: Yes. To tell a story that no one else can tell, and to bring that promise to life every day for our clients. A don’t is focusing on just the creative and just the actual tactical execution. Brand becomes the lens by which you make every decision in your company, it is every touchpoint. It is a living, breathing thing that is always evolving. I think, as marketers, we have historically focused on the campaign, the creative. In fact, this is something that should live on, and the story should unfold for many years.

Drew Neisser: I love it. What a great summary. I can barely add to that. Anybody listening to this show knows that we believe that you have to get employees on board no matter what, and you have to get them on board early and often. Then number two, the customer, and that leads directly to the prospect. I love your equation: behavior equals culture equals brand. That’s a great thing. One of the guests talked about that too. He wasn’t really interested in values; he was interested in behavior because that’s the actual demonstration of values. That’s really an interesting thing. It is an exciting part for a CMO to be able to not just think about execution. That’s what my next book is about. If you’re spending 83% of your dollars on demand generation, chances are you are way too far downstream to actually make a fundamental difference for the company. You’re gonna get lost in all your marketing automation, optimization, and you’re going to lose sight of these other things that we’ve talked about. I just want to thank you so much for sharing your story.

Lorraine Barber-Miller: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Drew Neisser: To all those folks who have stayed with us this far. Thank you so much for listening. As always, I’ve been getting some good text suggestions. Text me with ideas for this show. Text to a friend who should be listening to this show and do me one favor after this episode, go and review the show on iTunes. I would love to get a few more of those. Thank you as always. And until next time. Keep those Renegade Thinking Caps on and strong.